Clearing trees and brush - exc or dozer?

[Catbuster]

The reason I ask is because for long and skinny an excavator wins every time.

For production, it’s hard to beat an 80,000 lb class machine with a 36-42” bucket and a progressive link hydraulic thumb. Wider buckets make it too hard to dig through roots while you’re stumping and you move a lot more dirt than needed, which makes for more cleanup. You don’t need the width, because branches and trees are long anyway.

A 65,000 pound class machine (Cat 329/330F, Komatsu PC290, Deere 270/300, Link Belt 290/300X4) works too, and has plenty of power. But going up to a 336 Cat/350 Deeretachi, Link-Belt Case, etc or Komatsu PC360 nets you almost 10’ more reach. A 100,000 pound class machine (Cat 349, Komatsu/Link-Belt 490, Deeretachi 470) nets you a lot more power, but also weight on not that much more undercarriage…Especially with a 349, meaning… Stuck much easier, and harder to get out. And They have a lot larger counterweight overhang to hit stuff with.

For 1/4 mile wide, if you really want it cleared quickly, you may want to look pairing a 336 with a D6 size machine. You will damage a six-way (VPAT) blade clearing with it. I usually paired a 336 with a 953 or 963 track loader (or as we call them in central KY, a high lift) with the loader chasing/rolling piles, cleaning up and raking loose stuff up. Crawler loaders are kinda hard to find out west for some reason though.

If you have all winter, you could conceivably cut the trees down with a chainsaw, process them into logs, stack them with a much smaller excavator, then also stump with a much smaller excavator, more or less logging the property and then digging the stumps out and handling the slash piles (chipping or burning, dependent on what your air authority will allow) but not replanting trees.

I hope that helps and is understandable.

 

[Loony661]

The reason I ask is because for long and skinny an excavator wins every time.

For production, it’s hard to beat an 80,000 lb class machine with a 36-42” bucket and a progressive link hydraulic thumb. Wider buckets make it too hard to dig through roots while you’re stumping and you move a lot more dirt than needed, which makes for more cleanup. You don’t need the width, because branches and trees are long anyway.

A 65,000 pound class machine (Cat 329/330F, Komatsu PC290, Deere 270/300, Link Belt 290/300X4) works too, and has plenty of power. But going up to a 336 Cat/350 Deeretachi, Link-Belt Case, etc or Komatsu PC360 nets you almost 10’ more reach. A 100,000 pound class machine (Cat 349, Komatsu/Link-Belt 490, Deeretachi 470) nets you a lot more power, but also weight on not that much more undercarriage…Especially with a 349, meaning… Stuck much easier, and harder to get out. And They have a lot larger counterweight overhang to hit stuff with.

For 1/4 mile wide, if you really want it cleared quickly, you may want to look pairing a 336 with a D6 size machine. You will damage a six-way (VPAT) blade clearing with it. I usually paired a 336 with a 953 or 963 track loader (or as we call them in central KY, a high lift) with the loader chasing/rolling piles, cleaning up and raking loose stuff up. Crawler loaders are kinda hard to find out west for some reason though.

If you have all winter, you could conceivably cut the trees down with a chainsaw, process them into logs, stack them with a much smaller excavator, then also stump with a much smaller excavator, more or less logging the property and then digging the stumps out and handling the slash piles (chipping or burning, dependent on what your air authority will allow) but not replanting trees.

I hope that helps and is understandable.

Great info here.

 

[davidwyby]

Thinking more and to clarify, I think the goal would be to push back the overgrowth a road or two wide. As it is, a dozer would have nowhere to push to. The growth is very thick…large brush small tree stuff interspersed with real trees. A guy with a saw would have his work cut out for him cutting his way in. An ex/saw might be the best. Grapple (I don’t know if a thumb would grab enough) the brush away, spin and pile behind. Guy could get dizzy. Then when a real tree is reached, saw it…or I guess uproot depending on ex size.

Unfortunately I don’t know of a use for the logs. Basically like cottonwood. Pulp maybe but it doesn’t grow straight much.

 

[Catbuster]

Thinking more and to clarify, I think the goal would be to push back the overgrowth a road or two wide. As it is, a dozer would have nowhere to push to. The growth is very thick…large brush small tree stuff interspersed with real trees. A guy with a saw would have his work cut out for him cutting his way in. An ex/saw might be the best. Grapple (I don’t know if a thumb would grab enough) the brush away, spin and pile behind. Guy could get dizzy. Then when a real tree is reached, saw it…or I guess uproot depending on ex size.

Unfortunately I don’t know of a use for the logs. Basically like cottonwood. Pulp maybe but it doesn’t grow straight much.

Then a smaller (160/200 size) excavator with a 36” bucket and a thumb is what you’re looking for. Just make sure the bucket has a good set of teeth. Probably a 3 guy job. One guy in the excavator, a saw guy, and another guy on that five-ton you have in your avatar hauling the brush off.

Brushing with a bucket/thumb really isn’t too bad, just grab it below the ground, shake the dirt out, throw it into the truck or pile, level the hole out and move forward.

If you’re thinking a demolition style grapple… I thought that too at one point, tried it, and went right back to the skinny bucket and hydraulic thumb.

Editing to say… Maybe even a 130 with a 30” bucket. Two roads is ~16–20’ and getting that 200 swung around could be hard unless it’s zero tail swing, and those are expensive to rent and hard to find with a thumb.

 

[afleetcommand]

A mini nose picker excavator vs. tree stumps.

 

[davidwyby]

There are some decent size sticks in there.

The one on the left is probably 24”, the two in the back 36”. I have some I milled and left out. I’m gonna mess with it, it might make truck decking. They tend to grow, fall, and sucker multiple trees up from the fallen one…some times several crisscrossed. Can be 20’ deep, covered with needles like snow so you can’t see what you’re stepping on.

 

[Wolley]

They clear the sides of the high way with large skid steer machines with mulcher/ grinder heads, and some smaller excavator with a mulcher head. They do everything under about 12 inches. Being a desert in this area you might benefit from leaving the organic material on the ground. Those big trees you would need to cut by hand or a big excavator harvester.

 

[davidwyby]

I think the thing would be a big ex with a big thumb. It’s mostly gonna be small junk. Start off with the ex spinning and feeding a couple trucks hauling it off or to the other side. Once there is enough room for sufficient separation, pile and burn.

 

[Woodpecker]

A little late to the party here myself. I’m a tree service guy so would likely approach the task differently than a logger. I’d come through with a large frame skid loader and forrestry mulcher. A skilled operator can handle just about anything up to 24-26” diameter with that setup and it’ll mulch 4ish inches below grade. Leaving large chips behind. It will take longer than a dozer but you win out not having to pile and burn.

Heck even something like a little FAE BL4 mulcher head on a 100ish horse skid loader will handle material in the 12-14” range. All in the comfort of a a climate controlled cab. That would give you lots of room to deal with whatever’s left.

 

[davidwyby]

I like the idea, but there is the seed bed. Everything left behind (it would be a lot) is gonna sprout. I think it would have to be burned off and repeatedly raked and burned a few years.

The only way I know of to eradicate them is cut, pile on stump, dry, burn...and burn seedlings for about 3 years. Disc after that I imagine.

 

[davidwyby]

Looks like they had someone go out and trim along the edge. They did the bare minimum, my truck doesn't fit. They piled the trimmings back in wherever they could, but that has been done enough times now that there really isn't much room with that combined with whatever is growing.

If I was gonna do that, I'd cut every tree within 20' min of the road and skid it out.

Back to big eqpt, an Ex feeding a truck(s) and a grapple skidder might do it.

The other consideration is that wood doesn't really go away in the desert. It just hardens, with the exception of palo verde, turns into sponge and then dust.

 

[Woodpecker]

I like the idea, but there is the seed bed. Everything left behind (it would be a lot) is gonna sprout. I think it would have to be burned off and repeatedly raked and burned a few years.

The only way I know of to eradicate them is cut, pile on stump, dry, burn...and burn seedlings for about 3 years. Disc after that I imagine.

You would likely be better off with cut stump application of Garlon 4 Ultra. Track loader/Forestry head and cut stump Garlon application is pretty standard operating procedure for ROW work. This approach is the closest thing you’re going to get to going scorched earth.

If you just wanna play with big toys or have better access to dozer/excavator by all means have at it. But the method I outlined is pretty much the most cost effective route. If there was a cheaper/better solution the big ROW companies would use that method instead.

Being in Bandit country I had an opportunity to play in a Bandit 5000 “back in the day” when I got started doing tree work with a ROW operation.

Not the greatest operator in this vid, and they didn’t even come close to showing full capability but it’s still cool to see one of these beasts in action:

The more modern big skid loader (think case dl550) with mulcher head combo is actually far more capable than the old bandit 5000 was. Or mount a mulcher head on an excavator. The sky’s the limit there really.

 

[Catbuster]

You would likely be better off with cut stump application of Garlon 4 Ultra. Track loader/Forestry head and cut stump Garlon application is pretty standard operating procedure for ROW work. This approach is the closest thing you’re going to get to going scorched earth.

If you just wanna play with big toys or have better access to dozer/excavator by all means have at it. But the method I outlined is pretty much the most cost effective route. If there was a cheaper/better solution the big ROW companies would use that method instead.

Being in Bandit country I had an opportunity to play in a Bandit 5000 “back in the day” when I got started doing tree work with a ROW operation.

Not the greatest operator in this vid, and they didn’t even come close to showing full capability but it’s still cool to see one of these beasts in action:

The more modern big skid loader (think case dl550) with mulcher head combo is actually far more capable than the old bandit 5000 was. Or mount a mulcher head on an excavator. The sky’s the limit there really.

Obviously YMMV, all the other disclaimers, but I’m going to have to disagree. A mulcher is an awesome tool, but for stuff the size and density of what I’m seeing in David’s pictures, I think clearing/grubbing with an excavator is the way to go, followed potentially by an herbicide treatment.

Honestly, I’d be worried about something coming out of that jumbled mess being released and coming back into the cab. It just looks jumbled and messy. If I can be 20’ away and pick it apart versus being right up in it, that’s going to be my choice.

I also say that partly because in my experience with a 299 XHP with an FAE head and a T870 with a Fecon, those machines get really hot and stuff that size gets thrown everywhere. And that was at 85 degrees here in KY, much less the middle of the desert. It’s just hard on the equipment. When you’re renting that burden is not on the renter, but I can’t help but keep that in mind as someone who does have some skin in the game with equipment.

A dedicated mulching tractor or something like a D4 or 953 with a mulching head will do better and handle larger material, and that’s what a lot of dedicated land clearing firms around here use.

 

[davidwyby]

The "stack" can be 15' deep, varying trunk sizes.

 

[Woodpecker]

Obviously YMMV, all the other disclaimers, but I’m going to have to disagree. A mulcher is an awesome tool, but for stuff the size and density of what I’m seeing in David’s pictures, I think clearing/grubbing with an excavator is the way to go, followed potentially by an herbicide treatment.

Honestly, I’d be worried about something coming out of that jumbled mess being released and coming back into the cab. It just looks jumbled and messy. If I can be 20’ away and pick it apart versus being right up in it, that’s going to be my choice.

I also say that partly because in my experience with a 299 XHP with an FAE head and a T870 with a Fecon, those machines get really hot and stuff that size gets thrown everywhere. And that was at 85 degrees here in KY, much less the middle of the desert. It’s just hard on the equipment. When you’re renting that burden is not on the renter, but I can’t help but keep that in mind as someone who does have some skin in the game with equipment.

A dedicated mulching tractor or something like a D4 or 953 with a mulching head will do better and handle larger material, and that’s what a lot of dedicated land clearing firms around here use.

Yeah don’t be this guy!

So much stupid there. Hell that’s a garbage mulcher head to boot! That’s the good thing about the bandit 5000 it took most of the stupid out of the equation.

You definitely don’t want to do a big job with just a “regular” skid loader. If you’re running a mulcher regularly you want one set up with a forestry package. That includes beefy glass/guards in the front and extra hydro oil cooler on top. I wouldn’t have any problem using a forestry mulcher given the pictures David has posted. But that’s what I’m comfortable with. I also haven’t heard a budget either. Depending on who you know or where you’re sourcing equipment the skidder/mulcher route could be more expensive.

The cool thing about a project like this is there’s really no wrong way to do it. Excavator/dozer option is really just the other side of the same coin as the mulcher option. Both have pluses and minuses.

Heck I was part of a storm clean up operation once so big (4 county area) we used 2 excavators to feed an air curtain burner 18 hours a day. Trucks pulled in and dumped brush/trees in 2 parallel lines and we fed the burner down the middle with the excavators on either side. Those burners are engineered to comply with most air quality regs btw. Might be an option @davidwyby

Anyway just thought I’d offer a couple alternative solutions to what was already suggested.

 

[davidwyby]

If burning was more of an option I'd crawl around in there and cut as much as I could off at the base or wherever I could reach, let it dry, and smoke it!