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Real talk about saw porting theory (no arguments)

EvilRoySlade

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I always consider the corrected compression ratio, which is the compression ratio of the volume trapped above the exhaust port.

Do you measure the case or just the before and after of the cylinder?


Shaun, I'll be shipping my 365xt cylinder in a day or two. Whenever I can make it to the PO. I'll write up my plans for it, if you wouldn't mind giving me a few pointers/ideas I'd appreciate it.
 

srcarr52

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Do you measure the case or just the before and after of the cylinder?


Shaun, I'll be shipping my 365xt cylinder in a day or two. Whenever I can make it to the PO. I'll write up my plans for it, if you wouldn't mind giving me a few pointers/ideas I'd appreciate it.

I think you are confused on what the corrected compression ratio is. It doesn't have anything to do with case compression, instead it's a better metric of the cranking pressure than the standard compression ratio because it takes into account the exhaust port height. It's pretty much the same formula but instead of using the stroke, you use the distance from the exhaust port roof to the squish band minus the squish clearance.

Case compression is much harder to measure, there are many things that have to be measured via block off plates and fluid.

I have not build an XT version of the 365/372 so I probably won't be much help on you plans. I know with autotune stratofied saws I have lots of luck with greatly increasing the strato duration and lengthening the blowdown, obviously it's a typical Husky and needs more exhaust duration.
 

Al Smith

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On compression now keep in mind that spinning over with the rope is static compression .Running under power is dynamic which will be higher .Type of piston rings .

My 2100 Husqvarna which is a thick ring pulls over about like a Harley on the rope .Yet most 2100 XP's with the thin ring pull over fairly easy but they will out run mine .
ECopsey had the other 2100 and I never asked him what it pulled static and I really have no idea what mine pulls other than hard but that's the way a thin ring does .If I am correct the way they are made under power it blows the ring outward making a better seal .--just trivia might mean something might not .
 

srcarr52

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On compression now keep in mind that spinning over with the rope is static compression .Running under power is dynamic which will be higher .Type of piston rings .

My 2100 Husqvarna which is a thick ring pulls over about like a Harley on the rope .Yet most 2100 XP's with the thin ring pull over fairly easy but they will out run mine .
ECopsey had the other 2100 and I never asked him what it pulled static and I really have no idea what mine pulls other than hard but that's the way a thin ring does .If I am correct the way they are made under power it blows the ring outward making a better seal .--just trivia might mean something might not .

Yes, the engine speed will have a large effect on the pressure in the combustion chamber. I wouldn't use static and dynamic to describe the states, because static implies no motion or an idealized calculation. Also because using these adjectives with cylinder pressure can be make definitions of Static vs. Dynamic Compression Ratio confusing.

Static Compression Ratio (SCR) is defined as the full swept volume. Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) in a four-stroke is the volume after the intake valve closes, in a two-stroke is when the export closes. This is the same as the Corrected Compression Ratio which is more often used in reference to two-strokes. Even then, the DCR or CCR are an idealized, maximum compression assuming 100% ring seal. It also assumes that the rest of the swept volume is lost out the ex port without effecting the pressure in the cylinder... which is not the case.

Thin ring saws have a tendency to pull over easier because of the large ring gap that looses a lot of air compared to the smaller gap of the thick ring. At running velocities the loss of air through this small orifice is negligible. Also thin rings have significantly less ring tension and therefor frictional losses which will also make it feel like it pulls over easier.

All pistons are designed to leak some of the gas pressure of the cylinder behind the rings, pushing them into the cylinder. This is because the ring is riding on the lower surface of the ring groove allowing a slight gap above the ring where the gas pressure can get behind the ring. Some piston features (gas porting), are aimed at letting the pressure build behind the ring sooner and I have used them in a chainsaw before. It becomes more of benefit with fuels that needs lots of compression to obtain the maximum power such as alcohol or methanol. For chainsaws I usually use horizontal gas porting, on kart engines I'll vertically port them.

Other things can be done to a four-stroke engine to increase ring seal. One way is to decrease ring flutter, or the short time period where the ring is off the lower portion of the ring groove after TDC before the combustion gasses have created enough pressure to force the ring down. Often this is done by creating a vacuum in the crankcase to keep the ring attached to the lower wall of the ring groove. It's common to see over 20 inHg of vacuum in the crankcase in a dry sump racing engine.
 

Al Smith

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It's all about term definition I guess .However when you talk same remember time area open and trapped compression. Time area open is how an eyebrow port type exhaust port works .

At cranking speeds the little eyebrow bleeds down the compression because it has more time to get the job done .At running speeds it doesn't have that much effect plus the fact exhaust if not for the fact of the high pressure exiting exhaust gas has much time too work either bringing the trapped compression up .With that knowledge and $2.25 you can buy a beer at most bars in Lima Ohio . In other words it really doesn't mean much .A point to ponder if nothing else .

Now you can get into boost ports back tunnel exteriors and the like but that gets into racing engines and way too deep for the simple make the saw run better stuff.Quite frankly that is above my pay scale .
 

EvilRoySlade

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Oh man, I typed faster than I was thinking. My head's been on crankcase stuffers or lack there of in the 357 I'm sending to Scott.

Corrected compression is what I was asking about above. I was wondering if people document before and after porting. And more so how it correlates. It's talked about only a little bit so I wonder if people either don't understand or if it really doesn't help guide you.
 

srcarr52

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It's all about term definition I guess .However when you talk same remember time area open and trapped compression. Time area open is how an eyebrow port type exhaust port works .

At cranking speeds the little eyebrow bleeds down the compression because it has more time to get the job done .At running speeds it doesn't have that much effect plus the fact exhaust if not for the fact of the high pressure exiting exhaust gas has much time too work either bringing the trapped compression up .With that knowledge and $2.25 you can buy a beer at most bars in Lima Ohio . In other words it really doesn't mean much .A point to ponder if nothing else .

Now you can get into boost ports back tunnel exteriors and the like but that gets into racing engines and way too deep for the simple make the saw run better stuff.Quite frankly that is above my pay scale .

Skidoo uses those eyebrow bleeds for starting decompression. They scare a lot of novice people when they first tear down their engine because they think it's completely junk. I saw a few posts this winter on them in snowmobile forums.
 

Al Smith

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I'm not totally sold on the idea but I guess they work for the way they were intended .
The p-100 uses them .I have no idea of a simple way to make them disappear because you would have to mill about 3/16" off the cylinder base and carve out the squish .Then you would run out of flange and shear the cylinder loose about the first time it fired up . The thought of being beaned in the kisser from an exploding cylinder kind of concerns me .
 

XP_Slinger

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Anybody ever try adding material to the top of a piston and milling it to shape vs machining the pop up? May sound like a strange question because you'd be adding weight to the piston but it wouldn't take much material to get a good boost in compression...say .020" of material in the end. Again, just a curiosity because aftermarket piston makers do it.
 

paragonbuilder

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Anybody ever try adding material to the top of a piston and milling it to shape vs machining the pop up? May sound like a strange question because you'd be adding weight to the piston but it wouldn't take much material to get a good boost in compression...say .020" of material in the end. Again, just a curiosity because aftermarket piston makers do it.

I know drf266 has done it. I remember a 025 that he got crazy compression on


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jmssaws

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I believe the additional weight kinda sorta cancels out the gain.

Unless you need to get the exhaust down a popup is a win,most every saw besides a 660 needs the exhaust and transfers raised and they need more intake duration and the only good way I see to gain compression and intake duration without gaining just that much more to grind out is a popup.
I haven't used one in 8 years or longer but the last 10 saws I've done have all been popups.
It also helps you keep the transfer angles because raising them 10+ degrees on some saws is very hard to maintain the roof angle or like a 661 you run out of cylinder in the roof of the transfers before you get them high enough.
 

jmssaws

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I ported a meteor 372 cylinder yesterday because he sent me the saw and the subject of a am cylinder never came up and I wanted to try it,anyway it was not timed well and even with a popup i has to go from 131 to 119 and that made the uppers huge so I matched the lowers to them. Very hard to maintain angles going that far.20170324_115204.jpg
 

jmssaws

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I've done several 394's cutting 050 from the chamber and then raise the transfers 15 degrees and the exhaust 12 and spend hours doing it,they run great but I did one Monday with a 040 popup and raises the transfers 2 degrees and the exhaust 3 degrees.
070 off the base had the intake at 79 which is perfect for me so I ported it start to finish in less time than I could do the transfers cutting the chamber.
Does run any different,actually may run better because of the transfer roof is still correct.
Done the last 395 the same way.
 

drf256

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Anybody ever try adding material to the top of a piston and milling it to shape vs machining the pop up? May sound like a strange question because you'd be adding weight to the piston but it wouldn't take much material to get a good boost in compression...say .020" of material in the end. Again, just a curiosity because aftermarket piston makers do it.
I've done a few, but I have the same concern that you do about the weight.

I had to buy 2 pounds of 4047 filler rod (the alloy that most closely approximates piston alloy in terms of silicon content), so I have enough of that for a lifetime.

Brett @GoBigBlue1984 may have some pics of the 395 piston I did for him.
 
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