Guide Bar Rail Hardness............. Interesting Test Results

[toolmaker]

In light of my findings with a Cannon bar and the guide rails showing wear, (which I think is premature) I did some tests.

Trued the rails on the Cannon and deburred it smooth as a babys' ass
Took it over to my Rockwell Hardness tester:
3 different penetration tests on the $200.00 Cannon bar revealed 40.5/41 Rockwell "C" scale hardness.


Hhhhhmmmmm................ me being a Tool $ Die maker for 43 years, I expected it to be harder.

Here's the surprise

I checked an Oregon Powermatch bar that a logger threw behind the butt pile on the landing because the tip got messed up. (OK, I scarf up guide bars that just need a new tip)
3 different penettration tests on the Oregon bar revealed exactly 46 Rockwell "C" scale hardness.

The Oregon bar was 5 to 5.5 rockwell "C" points harder than the Cannon.

I never would have guessed this.

 

[Duce]

Did you send your results into Cannon?

 

[Philbert]

OK, now interpret this for us guys who can barely tell 'wood' from 'metal'.

Is 5 Rockwell "C" points significant? 5°F in outdoor temperature is a small, incremental change. 5db in sound measurement is huge (logarithmic)!

'Harder' also leads to 'brittle' too, at some point, with chipping an issue?

Thanks. Appreciate your ability to do the objective tests.

Philbert

 

[Nutball]

Their video says a body hardness of 40-42, the rails are flame hardened to and undisclosed hardness supposedly about 0.100" deep. Also guaranteed for life against defects in material or workmanship.

I'll go take a peek at my Total, and Stihl bar to see their wear.

EDIT: The Total, which has a good bit of use looks pretty good, the Stihl has a good bit of wear on the back bottom side, and it has relatively little use. The first couple tanks of use on it were in Ash and with a struggling oil pump. Also it is 32" vs the 20" Total, so it sees more tension too. Stihl, the wear didn't look anywhere near as bad as you Cannon after about 10-20 ms660 gas guzzling tanks of run time.

You want these bars to be like leaf springs to take lots of abuse without holding a bend, but I have seen Oregon rails chip.

 

[toolmaker]

OK, now interpret this for us guys who can barely tell 'wood' from 'metal'.

Is 5 Rockwell "C" points significant? 5°F in outdoor temperature is a small, incremental change. 5db in sound measurement is huge (logarithmic)!

'Harder' also leads to 'brittle' too, at some point, with chipping an issue?

Thanks. Appreciate your ability to do the objective tests.

Philbert

For those of you that do not understand Rockwell hardness, it is difficult for me to explain and give comparisons.
Talking about tool steel, not carbide, ceramic, diamond, etc........... just tool steel.
The hardest Rockwell you can get out of steel is in the upper 60's, 65 and change, maybe up to 67/68.
This hardness would compare to the cutting flutes of a high quality High Speed Steel drill bit, endmill, or HSS lathe tool.

For comparison:
The hardest that can be successfully cut with a HSS cutting tool is right around Rockwell C 45, and that is only in a perfect world where everything is set up correctly and the proper cutting speeds are used. Angle of the dangle also comes in to play, along with a big swear jar.

So........
Could you drill a hole in the oregon bar, (which was the hardest in my test)out near the rails where it is the hardest, with a high quality HSS drill bit?
Maybe. If you had a good rigid setup in a milling machine, a good drill bit, a good lubricant or flood coolant, or a good stream of compressed air while drilling with a mist of Cool Tool or the like. No doubt the drill will be junk when you are done, and it may take a couple drills to get through the bar.

Could you drill the hole with carbide, ceramic, or diamond? Of course. But we are talking about steel.

Is 5 hardness points significant? I would say definitely yes, since we are on the cusp of machineability or not.

 

[Wilhelm]

I have gotten my hands on a couple bars made by manufacturers other than Oregon, they can all be dressed with a flat Stihl racker file.
But I have a dark grey colored Oregon bar that can not be touched by the same Stihl file and the one time I dressed it I had to use a square grinding stone.

Oregon does make some tough bars, hands down - but occasionally they also mess things up.
No reason for Cannon to be any different, other than the pricing.

Maybe You should have contacted Cannon regarding the bar wear prior to dressing the rails.
They might have sent You a new one.

 

[toolmaker]

Just an interesting update:
I emailed the info abovve to Bill @ Cannon.
He replied to me and told me that I could return the bar for inspection if I wanted to.
I told him that I had taken measurements of the amount of wear, and the Rockwell hadness compared to the Oregon bar.
He told me that the wear was excessive and the hardness was too soft.
He is sending me a return label to return the bar for repair or replacement.

 

[kanscruzer]

"The Oregon bar was 5 to 5.5 rockwell "C" points harder than the Oregon."
Was the last Oregon meant to be Cannon
you lost me ,,, proof reader

 

[toolmaker]

"The Oregon bar was 5 to 5.5 rockwell "C" points harder than the Oregon."
Was the last Oregon meant to be Cannon
you lost me ,,, proof reader

You are correct.
I made the necessary change above.

 

[toolmaker]

I received notificaation from Cannon that my bar is being returned.
They told me everything was in spec, excepting that it had a slight bend in it, they fixed the bend.

I will stand out front and say that I am not a Pro, nor do I claim to know everything about saws.

I used to cut and burn about 8 cords of wood/year. That is nothing to most of you guys, but ya gotta admit it's a good bit of wood for a single family home to burn in 1 season.

As far as Cannon bars are concerned, I am not even the slightest bit impressed.
I paid well over $100 more than any other leading bar manufacturer for a bar that wears too fast.
No way worth the money.

A quote from the e-mail I received from Cannon:
"Our bars will outlast other bars, The bar you sent in has plenty of life still on the bar and can be used when you receive it back".

There is no way in hell that Cannon bars last $100.00 longer.

Rant over

 

[Wonkydonkey]

So......is that they tested the hardness, and came to a different figure that you got.

I,m going from memory that you tested it way back in the thread.

or is it just it’s got life left in it.

I,m wondering if they have measured the depth at the heal and along the bar, as well as the hardness in both or more places. Then did some calculations to come to an answer, the one they gave you..

We know the heal wears more for different reasons ie sprockets and chain tensions but how much more compared to other bars ?..

To throw a question out to others. So as to maybe compare lose chains with tighter chains. We know that stihl duromatic bars have the chain looser than other stihl roller nose bars. Has anyone seen the difference in wear between these bars and rails.

 

[Wilhelm]

I received notificaation from Cannon that my bar is being returned.
They told me everything was in spec, excepting that it had a slight bend in it, they fixed the bend.

I will stand out front and say that I am not a Pro, nor do I claim to know everything about saws.

I used to cut and burn about 8 cords of wood/year. That is nothing to most of you guys, but ya gotta admit it's a good bit of wood for a single family home to burn in 1 season.

As far as Cannon bars are concerned, I am not even the slightest bit impressed.
I paid well over $100 more than any other leading bar manufacturer for a bar that wears too fast.
No way worth the money.

A quote from the e-mail I received from Cannon:
"Our bars will outlast other bars, The bar you sent in has plenty of life still on the bar and can be used when you receive it back".

There is no way in hell that Cannon bars last $100.00 longer.

Rant over

As so often with extreme premium products, just an overly hyped brand.
Get Yourself an Oregon and enjoy it.

I have a laminate 20" D009 Oregon bar in use on my PS-6400 for the past 15 years bucking hardwood firewood logs and still going - all I did to it was dress the rails and deepen the tail groove twice.
In my book that is excellent quality.

 

[Wilhelm]

P.S.:
Even though I have yet to swap out a bar due to wear on any of my chainsaws I once ordered a new laminate 20" D009 Dolmar branded Oregon bar from my dealer of choice.
The bar I received had an "S" curve in it unlike any of my well used bars.

I have notified my dealer with description of the issue and pictures - I got notified that I will receive another bar free of charge without having to send back the questionable one.

Yeah, I'll stick with my dealer of choice and Dolmar/Oregon.

 

[Duce]

Own two Cannon bars, one 24" old Woodland Pro branded Cannon and one 20" Superbar. Dressed 24" once with a grinder, flat file of several brands would not touch it, ruined roller tip once in a pinch. Have not had to touch that 20" yet. Have run several Oregon bars, Husky, Laser bars and all needed dressing, one Oregon bars rail fractured off and bar was new. We hear about problems people have all the time, good stories not so much. $45-100+ for an Oregon depending on model or buy a Cannon, I will choose a Cannon.

 

[thinair]

Own two Cannon bars, one 24" old Woodland Pro branded Cannon and one 20" Superbar. Dressed 24" once with a grinder, flat file of several brands would not touch it, ruined roller tip once in a pinch. Have not had to touch that 20" yet. Have run several Oregon bars, Husky, Laser bars and all needed dressing, one Oregon bars rail fractured off and bar was new. We hear about problems people have all the time, good stories not so much. $45-100+ for an Oregon depending on model or buy a Cannon, I will choose a Cannon.

This^^ Also, the Cannon and Stihl 6 rivet tips outlast the Oregon tips

 

[Rogee]

I've found sugi hara to be superior to all the bar mentioned in this thread . Have had Cannons and they were very average

 

[gurwald]

If the rails are harder than a file it sounds like it would be brittle, just hard doesnt mean its good, you want wear resistance on bar rails that is different than just hard, certain alloys help in different ways like carbon, manganese, vanadium, nickel, etc.
From personal experience I have found the human aspect to be the most common fault when there is a problem... Like running it witout proper oiling it's the operators fault not the saw or the bar.
Not saying thats the case here just the most likley.