[album] Can't get '82 Poulan 3200 running, air/spark/fuel all OK, suspect carb...

[Cerberus]

"TL;DR"- album below basically shows where I'm at, got spark, air and fuel as far as the carb, unit has turned-over 1 time out of many scores of attempts, fuel is all new & good and no fuel-filter in place at the moment as that was last thing I tried "crossing off the list", and it did let fuel go all the way up the fuel-line to the carb, but no 2nd turn-over

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I took-on this project (an "unknown fault" saw) for a friend and, even though my '77 poulan 25d still sits half-built, I reallllly wanna make this one work and it's on-the-bench now still so hoping for any help!!

I suspect the carb is "crammed up", I did get 1 turnover (literally 1, have probably got 50-->75 pulls on that rope now lol) but cannot get anymore, my routine was:

1- replaced gas, pulling-through all the old gas and even rinsing reservoir (you can look in there and see the fuel filter now, it's not like 10% or even 2% old-fuel kicking around anymore)
2- replaced spark plug, thing was fouled a bit but not terrible, replaced with new gapped & dielectric-greased plug (the tachometer readings from the new plug did seem to be averaging higher than the old plug, but it's guesswork glancing at that while wildly pulling the unit to start it, this has no primer bulb and asks that you start it by full-throttling with right hand and pushing-away while pulling cord with left-hand)
3- After the 1 'burp'/crank of the engine, knowing it 'could' work, I checked fuel-lines more closely and found a slight, tight crack in the line where it enters the carb housing, though it didn't seem to be dripping.....the line in-reservoir looked good so I opened the handle to see entire fuel line and found fuel wasn't making its way to that "tight crack", I ended up removing the fuel-filter and from there the 'tight crack' was now getting some gas dripping out of it, but still no turning-over
4- opened the H&L jets over 1 turn (in 1/4 turn increments) and removed air-filter, figuring "I know I have spark, air and fuel as far as the fuel-line // carb interface", but still no luck....so am presuming this means the crap-catcher in the top of the carb is full/jammed?

Thanks a ton for any insight, would really love to make this thing work again, I know it wants to, compression feels great....while the carb does look clean on the outside, the air-intake (past the filter) had tons of debris, so am guessing carb was hit with a spray-cleaner at some prior point.

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Album:
New plug in, tach seemed to read higher #'s but it's very hard to see when doing pulls!


Since it's a no-primer unit, started simply by choking & pulling briskly (with WOT, as per instructions written on unit itself), I've got blisters from "pulling fuel through" the thing, at any rate after removing fuel-filter from the end of hosing, the "tight crack" was now bleeding/weeping some fuel after another attempt at starting-up:


Rest of line looks just fine, only 'problems' I could fathom are poor "Reservoir//fuel line" seal, like the gasket around the fuel-line, maybe vacuum-problem because of that?


So, seeing I had spark, fuel(at least as far as the fuel-line could carry it to the carb), and air (since I removed air-filter on last tests), all I can think is "Is this the type of carb where I can just un-screw that front-plate and scoop the crap from that mesh-screen in there?" but, having never actually opened a carb before, I'm unsure if this is smart to try or if I'll just be opening Pandora's Box & should just tell friend Sorry, can't do it, will need a pro to replace this carb :/
Carb:


Again thanks a ton for any&all insight on this, would really mean a lot to get this thing running

 

[Cerberus]

FWIW, unit is otherwise (seemingly) in good shape I mean the compression feels great despite so much crud behind the air-filter, the clutch-driven oiler was weeping (old) oil from my startup sessions had to keep wiping it clean lol, I feel like if the vacuum at the fuel line // fuel reservoir junction were restored (ie the fuel line isn't tight in the reservoir) that it may be enough to get it to turn-over but it's getting fuel up to that carb and still not even turning-over / burping (only 1 single time..) so it's hard to think the problem is 'below' the carb here, I've just got no experience opening&cleaning the "tops" (front, here) of carbs, others seem to do it with ease and I'm eager to try but not if it's tooo risky or involved (IE it looks like I can remove that top-plate without having to remove the carb from the powerhead, if I have to un-hook the throttle lines I can't do it since it's not my unit & I wouldn't take the chance, only done throttle-lines once and was a nightmare :/ )

 

[Cerberus]

Illustration/schematic of the carb:


In looking at it it seems it should be straightforward.....has actually crossed my mind "Why can't I simply remove H&L jets and, with carb-cleaner spray's powerful jet, just blast-out?" but suspect that's not gonna help much Is there any way to try using carb-cleaner here? Or is that really just an "outside of the carb's body" cleaner? I have bottles & bottles as I use it for cleaning my bars&chains before re-greasing

 

[stretch5881]

First off, you have it listed as a 3200. I believe it is a 2300. I have one and use it regular.
Is the spark plug wet? That is how to see if fuel is getting to the cylinder. If not, the carb needs to be rebuilt (the screen could be plugged or the diaphragm stiff or cracked). It could also be that the reed valve needs service. It could also need new crank seals.
Rebuilding carburetors is not that hard. Just make sure you work on it in a clean area. It is easy to lose small parts if you drop them.
Watch a couple of videos on rebuilding for education.
Everyone who rebuilds carbs had to start with the first one.

 

[Cerberus]

First off, you have it listed as a 3200. I believe it is a 2300. I have one and use it regular.
Is the spark plug wet? That is how to see if fuel is getting to the cylinder. If not, the carb needs to be rebuilt (the screen could be plugged or the diaphragm stiff or cracked). It could also be that the reed valve needs service. It could also need new crank seals.
Rebuilding carburetors is not that hard. Just make sure you work on it in a clean area. It is easy to lose small parts if you drop them.
Watch a couple of videos on rebuilding for education.
Everyone who rebuilds carbs had to start with the first one.

Yes both spark-plug (checked for flooding earlier on) and the entire cylinder (visible now, since - during testing - I've got no muffler or air-filter on this thing, or fuel-filter for that matter) were definitely wet with fuel, so I know it's passing-through the carb it's just not enough :/

Got a 2nd time firing, although I took some engine-starting-fluid and sprayed it directly into the jug from the open exhaust outlet/porting...

I opened & cleaned the fuel-intake side (since you don't have to remove the carb ), there was a ton of crud between the fuel-pump intake of the carb and that initial "pencil width circular mesh filter" thing was clogged, I cleaned them & all surrounding outlets with carb-clean and reassembled, confident this'd do the trick -- no go :/

Where do I want my h&l jets during this type of testing? Uncertain if wide open like 3-->4 turns out is smarter, or if that 'factory' ~1.5 would be better....also have been omitting the "Begin *choked* til engine turns-over" most of these attempts, because I don't want to flood it just sitting there doing 30 pulls with it choked (though I guess now that the muff is off & I can just look-into the jug, no real question if it's flooded or not )

Guess next step is removing the carb so that I can access the metering side....gah...1st step was removing fuel hose so I can free the carb, that thing is on there good am gonna razor it off (meaning I can't even re-line the thing & test today, will have to go get more fuel lines......not a bad idea since the one on it now, while I'm sure sufficient, is certainly not optimal!)

Read about 'stuck reed valves so once I remove the carb I can check for that as well (not only is it highly important to me to fix this thing, but the mere act of doing so makes it so likely I'll go finish my own '77, ~30cc unit (25d) which'll be hilarious to put in-use here&there (I'm a solo/contract climber, more contract lately but quickly pivoting-back from that yet again gah I hate most crews I end up on I dunno if it's me or just the industry...will be fun having this no chainbrake, no muff cover, WOT-to-start unit in-use though, obviously not anything 'primary' just for fun!)

 

[Cerberus]

I may end-up having to google it myself but if anyone knows off-hand...

could I just throw-in the carb from my 25d? It's 7yrs younger, but - to the naked eye - the carbs look *identical*, the fuel lines are reading as identical width, I do suspect it'd at least work even if not ideal (there's a ~5cc displacement difference)

 

[stretch5881]

Yes, you can swap carbs.
When I mentioned seeing if the spark plug is wet, I didn't mean checking for flooding. I meant to see if fuel is getting to the cylinder. So, first things first. Is fuel getting to the cylinder?

 

[Cerberus]

Yes, you can swap carbs.
When I mentioned seeing if the spark plug is wet, I didn't mean checking for flooding. I meant to see if fuel is getting to the cylinder. So, first things first. Is fuel getting to the cylinder?

Yes it is, I can not only see it on the spark plug being wet but also can simply look-inside the cylinder and pull the cord to move piston to TDC and just look in the muffler port (I have muffler off, air filter off, fuel filter off, H&L are about 2 turns out on most attempts they came to me at ~1.25 turns out)

Only got a 2nd turn-over (never got it to run) by spraying starting-fluid into the cylinder through the exhaust port....I found the fuel side of carb to be clean so just opened the metering-diaphram side and diaphragm seems fine is supple/flexible enough for sure, looks clean as hell in fact I'm hesitant to spray it because of how delicate that lil spring/actuator in the middle is, that thing and its spring all look in perfect order...am very confused I was so sure I'd see crap in here, I guess the reed valve defective is next & last thing I even know to check...still have carb connected, was enough slack to remove both sides with the throttle linkage, and fuel line, still attached..

You don't think a slight fuel leakage in the line (I mean a light, light weeping), combined with the fact the fuel line's entry to the fuel tank isn't remotely a 'tight fit', could be the problem alone? On a unit w/o a primer, maybe you just need a higher degree of 'tightness' to the system? I'm hesitant to replace the fuel line but it's really all I've got unless I go and peer at that reed valve now and find some obvious flaw with it which I'm doubting considering how nice the internals of that carb looked... am at a loss, everything looks good...


[should I be doing 'test runs' to start this with a higher, lower or normal H&L configuration? How about choking it, I do most testing with a couple choked pulls then unchoked pulls for 10, 20+ pulls, because I don't want to be flooding it...though its design is "start by going full choke, full throttle with right hand, fast-jerk to start with left hand; once you get turnover, unchoke and re-pull to start"

 

[stretch5881]

I might have missed it, did you do a compression test? It needs at least 90 psi to fire.

 

[Cerberus]

I might have missed it, did you do a compression test? It needs at least 90 psi to fire.

No gear for it sadly, but the pull from the cord is nice & strong I mean I've had low-compression powerheads before that had like 2/3rds the pull this thing has (from the starter-cord, which - as I understand it - is a good indication of compression) BUT maybe that's all for nothing if fuel isn't in the cylinder as you'd asked, I was so sure it was but now I cannot help wondering if the slickness I saw was residue from spraying the Starting Fluid into the cylinder via the muffler porting (I got it to turn over a 3rd time in this manner, not that it means much except the thing can fire - doesn't necessarily mean it can run, of course)
Was expecting crap in the carb's second half / metering-side but it was clean as a whistle, at that point I felt I'd seen every inch of the machine that could be problematic so turned-back to the fuel-line, I'd written off the fuel line's lil crack (and the weak/incomplete sealing of where the line leaves the fuel tank) so I went back and put a new fuel line in, was so damn sure it'd work but nothing :/

can't believe I can't get this to run, wish I knew where optimal H&L settings were for testing like this (and how often it should be choked, when trying to start in this condition), feel like there's no reason it shouldn't be running:
new lines:
[yup, my project-25d became a parts-saw for this one ]
fuel & metering sides of carb:


^thing looks outstanding, I did *not* spray the 2nd pic(metering side), did spray the other side(fuel intake side) but that made no difference either.

Should I be pulling >20X in a session? Honestly I'm not used to 'older machines' like this w/o a primer, hell this is designed for a thicker fuel (higher oil%) maybe it's all down to some kind of pressure issue..

How do I tell for 100.0% sure that gas is getting to the chamber? I would've thought the spark plug getting gas on it would be a guarantee? Will pull the (new)plug to double check it's a bit wet, the old one was quite wet when I swapped them in fact I thought "maybe I've flooded it" when swapping (it was shortly after that 1st time it turned-over)

 

[stretch5881]

3 things you need to be sure of: fuel is getting to the plug, spark and compression. If you are not used to the saw, it is hard to judge compression by pulling the cord. Starter pulleys are different diameters. Smaller ones can make it seem harder to pull. Having a decent compression tester around usually pays for itself.

 

[Homemade]

Take the recoil off and chuck up a socket adapter in a drill. Use the drill as an electric starter with a socket that fits on the flywheel. Any d sex mall engine I have hard starting I do this. And after 10 seconds of no fire, the dump a tablespoon or “a good splash” down the spark plug hole. If it fires, then you have a fuel related issue.


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[Cerberus]

First off, you have it listed as a 3200. I believe it is a 2300. I have one and use it regular.

BTW yeah my bad I meant 2300 dunno how I erred there You using one regularly....would love to hear elaboration!! If(when!) I get my 25d kicking, I'll certainly be using it, but know for fact that plenty of others would tell me "Not on my site" (since no chain-break)
[FWIW I'm solo like 4/5 jobs so that's not a practical issue for me or anything am just curious to hear of one in regular use, I mean I love idea of my 25d working but gah my 355t spins to literally 2X the RPM for ~same displacement ]

3 things you need to be sure of: fuel is getting to the plug, spark and compression. If you are not used to the saw, it is hard to judge compression by pulling the cord. Starter pulleys are different diameters. Smaller ones can make it seem harder to pull. Having a decent compression tester around usually pays for itself.

Thanks a TON for that, had never contemplated that (varying pulley diameters) and had been using it like a 'hard&fast rule' to gauge compression....I know I need one am new & just accumulating parts now but have no good excuse I knew I needed one months ago and it's still on ebay-list :/

Take the recoil off and chuck up a socket adapter in a drill. Use the drill as an electric starter with a socket that fits on the flywheel. Any d sex mall engine I have hard starting I do this. And after 10 seconds of no fire, the dump a tablespoon or “a good splash” down the spark plug hole. If it fires, then you have a fuel related issue.


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**Mind-blown**
So....it seems so obvious but I'd never thought of it like that...basically to start one of these machines, is to repeatedly spin the flywheel-rotor - we're usuallly doing this by the rope, with me destroying my shoulder/wrist in the process over the past several days' of sessions on this machine....You're telling me I could simply setup a 'flywheel removal' type bit and use my drill, instead of my arm? Pretty sure that's what you're saying, & it makes sense, it's just so epic I can't be sure if it's that simple!! Can't say I'd be doing it on this machine, but just to know it - for future - would be huge I mean I have really blistered myself too many times, and I can make a flywheel chuck for any saw in like 5min (have plenty experience removing flywheels, if I understand you right I'm just making the flywheel-removal 'bit' and, instead of blocking piston & turning it CW to remove, I simply put my drill on there and spin it CCW? What speed should I run the drill? Should I 'back&forth' the pressure or keep it steady? (I have plenty of good/precise drills so can really 'dial-in' here, just unsure what's best....am guessing to use the lower speed on the drill? This sounds too amazing I may actually try it for this saw, it's just that the saw isn't mine and I've had it for like 2wks I think owner is missing it

 

[stretch5881]

I have both a 2300 and a 2000. I don't care if they don't have a chain brake because I use them 1 handed. The reason I like them is there is enough room for my big paws wearing insulated leather gloves in the trigger area. They also have good power for the weight.

 

[Cerberus]

HOLY CRAP!!! "Update"!!!!!!!!

Guy gave me this 3200!! I'd taken it in kind of a "I'll do my best, no promises & no charge if I can't fix it" manner, as he was/is a new client (had just topped-then-felled an oak that was leaning over his garage) and I liked him so was eager to offer a "no charge diagnosis" (lol while my 25d goes on >1yr un-touched ), anyways when I told him I had to throw in the towel & return it to him he told me to keep it so now.......now I've got NO excuse not to have a vintage Poulan, right?
View attachment 263890
So....what would you do??? I'm now thinking "I've got a 5yrs-newer, several-CC's larger, better-oiling model now, I should prioritize the 3200 then the 25d if no luck with the 3200" (I don't want to build both lol, one will suffice for me )

Certainly need to order the compression gauge asap since both jugs could be <90PSI and I've got jack *s-word here (does that sound pretty plausible?) It was only through the past year that I really got into working on saws, the 25d wasn't left unfinished because "it beat me" it was simply one of my first forays and the recoil spring got loose so I shelved it and simply never picked it up again since I always had some other powerhead to tinker with, am confident I could fix either of these saws if they've got the compression so am thinking:

1 - order gauge, verify cylinders. Presuming both are OK,
2 - 3200 is priority, gets further diagnosis (and likely gets the carb from the 25d, since if it's not the compression I'm guessing it's likely the carb)
3 - If 3200 doesn't have the compression (or does, but the 25d's is far better), then move the 3200's carb to the 25d and go from there

Does that ^ sound about right? Thanks a ton for any input, I know I'm green here but if I could get a Tanaka to scream after receiving it with a mangled ignition module // no chain tensioner // jammed crank then I imagine I can step-by-step one of these super-straightforward old Poulans...I hope

 

[Homemade]

BTW yeah my bad I meant 2300 dunno how I erred there You using one regularly....would love to hear elaboration!! If(when!) I get my 25d kicking, I'll certainly be using it, but know for fact that plenty of others would tell me "Not on my site" (since no chain-break)
[FWIW I'm solo like 4/5 jobs so that's not a practical issue for me or anything am just curious to hear of one in regular use, I mean I love idea of my 25d working but gah my 355t spins to literally 2X the RPM for ~same displacement ]


Thanks a TON for that, had never contemplated that (varying pulley diameters) and had been using it like a 'hard&fast rule' to gauge compression....I know I need one am new & just accumulating parts now but have no good excuse I knew I needed one months ago and it's still on ebay-list :/


**Mind-blown**
So....it seems so obvious but I'd never thought of it like that...basically to start one of these machines, is to repeatedly spin the flywheel-rotor - we're usuallly doing this by the rope, with me destroying my shoulder/wrist in the process over the past several days' of sessions on this machine....You're telling me I could simply setup a 'flywheel removal' type bit and use my drill, instead of my arm? Pretty sure that's what you're saying, & it makes sense, it's just so epic I can't be sure if it's that simple!! Can't say I'd be doing it on this machine, but just to know it - for future - would be huge I mean I have really blistered myself too many times, and I can make a flywheel chuck for any saw in like 5min (have plenty experience removing flywheels, if I understand you right I'm just making the flywheel-removal 'bit' and, instead of blocking piston & turning it CW to remove, I simply put my drill on there and spin it CCW? What speed should I run the drill? Should I 'back&forth' the pressure or keep it steady? (I have plenty of good/precise drills so can really 'dial-in' here, just unsure what's best....am guessing to use the lower speed on the drill? This sounds too amazing I may actually try it for this saw, it's just that the saw isn't mine and I've had it for like 2wks I think owner is missing it

Use this. I chuck it up in my 3/8 Milwaukee corded drill that turns at 3000 rpm no load. Of course spin in the direction that the rope would turn the engine. It’s usually counter clockwise on a saw. Almost all flywheels are held on by a nut so put the socket that matches on the other end of the adapter. Once it fires just pull the drill away. It slips off the nut with no problem.


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[stretch5881]

2300

 

[Cerberus]

Use this. I chuck it up in my 3/8 Milwaukee corded drill that turns at 3000 rpm no load. Of course spin in the direction that the rope would turn the engine. It’s usually counter clockwise on a saw. Almost all flywheels are held on by a nut so put the socket that matches on the other end of the adapter. Once it fires just pull the drill away. It slips off the nut with no problem.

Yeah it's gotta be CCW now that I'm thinking about it (as the clutch&chain move that direction also ;P ) but I'm still unclear just how to use my drill here, I mean I have those adapters (god are they lifesavers when-needed!!) and am adept at using my grinder to "carve up" a socket to fit the flywheel (have made such "1-off's" at least 3x that I can think of for removing flywheels), I just can't tell what type of power to give the shaft, from my drill?? Like, I know my drill's max RPM is well below the saw's max RPM, so would I basically want my drill on max? I would be using my regular drill(not my impact drill), it's got 2 speed settings and a 'strength' dial but that'd be irrelevant here as there's no real resistance so it's just "high speed/low speed" and how hard I depress that trigger.....if I gun the drill, at high speed, I'm guessing it's a 3k-->5k spin at best (actually that's probably on the high side..)

2300

Totally what I thought thanks BTW is it plausible/likely that both of these things turn out having <90PSI (or <decent) compression? I've no idea how optimistic to be, nor an inkling of how common <90psi cylinders are (I'm sure neither will have compression near OEM-spec, though as I understand it you can modify compression by removing some gasket to change height of the cylinder? Probably beyond what I can do though..)

Can I get-away with one of those $20, generic compression gauges for this? Or are they too unreliable to be used? See a massive range of compression (and comp+vacuum) testers online, some even at local brick&mortars

 

[stretch5881]

When it comes to tools, I wouldn't cheap out. Good tools pay for themselves and last a lifetime. Check reviews on the tester that you are interested in.

 

[fossil]

You should set both needles around 1-1/8 turns out to start. If you have to go more open you very likely need a carb kit. I doubt if the saw is in decent shape that it would even run 2 - 3 turns out.

I am attaching a service manual, an owner's manual and an IPL that should help you out.