Self feeding issues

[junkman]

It looks like I need to pay better attention to my grinding wheels. I'm sure this is where some of the hook is coming from. View attachment 159706

That is not helping ,try to profile it to look like a round file ,do you still have the little jig and dressing stone to check and shape the profile of the wheel ?

 

[chipper1]

I don’t round my wheel at all, I keep a square corner on it specs on the grinder are 60 degrees on the head, 35 on the vise and 10 to the side.
For rakers I use a separate grinder but it’s 60 on the head 0 and 0 on the vise, as well as a wheel that’s parallel to the vise for a grind the wheel is the large 11H or 3/4” chain wheel.

That's one way to do it, but it will not cut like a tooth with some hook on it, but it will hold an edge longer(because the tooth is stronger). On a processor it would be fine, but what Adam is looking for is a self feeding chain, the chain in that picture looks as though you'd have to stand on it to make it feed, do you have any videos of it cutting.
I'd like to see some pictures of the setup you use for rakers too. Do you basically just set the raker based on the very back portion and grind off the front with that steep of an a. When I do them with a grinder I do them I set the grinder at an 85 degree angle, it leaves a little less to hit with a file when I need to drop them after a few hand filings. I set one on each side by hand and then set the depth of the grinder head using them as a template. Then I do the right side first and then the left as I have to adjust the wheel a slight bit lower on the left side to get them the same height on an earlier tecomec grinder. Sure I could adjust the vise, just haven't... I mainly grind rakers on used chains that they haven't been done on before or chains that have major damage and need to be taken back a lot.

 

[junkman]

I use the same type of guide Brian. Is PNW wood hard or soft?

Depends who you ask ,general rule i was told is softwoods have needles ,hardwoods have leaves ,douglas fir is considered a softwood but cuts harder than a pine ,if you have a 2x4 or a wooden beam from lumber store ,it is usually doug fir ,it cuts easier wet than does once dried out .

 

[Toad22t]

That is not helping ,try to profile it to look like a round file ,do you still have the little jig and dressing stone to check and shape the profile of the wheel ?

I have the stone but not the jig. I bought the grinder off of craigslist for I believe $100.

 

[blades]

dressing wheel edge should be u shape or another way of saying is convex radius same as width of wheel. On those pico chains some require either a thinner wheel or a radius of about 1/16". Personally I use the head set at apx 65 deg. ( less hook depth) with 25 deg across the top plate. If you have the tilting vise drop the tie strap away from the grinding wheel, if your unit can slide the vise fore and aft you set off center enough to clear the tie strap ( this requires you to reset for each side). on a long chain or taking a lot off, you may have to redress the wheel part way through. I never grind dirty chains the crud will load the wheel and cause over heating. I use a caliper to get both sets of cutters even. Mostly set depth gauges at .030 on full size chains .020-.025 on the those little pico or low profile chains mostly because those are used on the little saws and pole saws. This seems to work well for me and my customers.
Note: you do not want the vertical side plate leading the cutting edge ( see a lot of that in the bottom 1/3 of the gullet) also excessive hook just dulls out faster do to the thinner edge of the top plate
CBN ( or sometimes referred to as diamond) wheels pricy but never need to be reshaped .

 

[RI Chevy]

TY Brian

 

[Philbert]

Late to the party, but generally agree with most of the comments.

'Self-feeding' implies that some of the saw's power is being used to pull the chain into the wood, rather than through it. It is fun, and can provide some additional degree of control in a cut, but it is inherently inefficient. The top plate edge digs in-between the wood grain (when crosscutting) before the side plate edge has time to sever the fibers.

If a saw has sufficient power to pull that chain, so be it. But the same chain on a lower powered saw may bog down in the cut. So the individual saw, as well as the species of wood, can make a difference. Since you are sharpening your own chain, you can experiment with the angles, hook, depth gauge settings, as others have noted, and see what works for you. Might be different than a guy cutting different wood with a different saw.

The jury is still out here on grinders but I have seen many ruined chains caused by grinders .

Fair comment. I have also seen many chains ruined by hand filing, that I have to clean up with a grinder. Different R and L angles. Inconsistent angles all over the place. Top plate filed with a top bevel (and not PowerSharp chain!). Filed gullets down to the tie straps but still dull cutting edges.
It is not the tool as much as the person using it.

It looks like I need to pay better attention to my grinding wheels.

Yeah, people do not grasp the importance of dressing the wheels. Frequently.
1. to shape the wheel edge, which then shapes the cutters;
2. to regularly expose fresh, sharp, abrasive.

I lightly dress the wheel about once per loop, and anytime it stops grinding as well as it should.

Philbert

 

[Toad22t]

Late to the party, but generally agree with most of the comments.

'Self-feeding' implies that some of the saw's power is being used to pull the chain into the wood, rather than through it. It is fun, and can provide some additional degree of control in a cut, but it is inherently inefficient. The top plate edge digs in-between the wood grain (when crosscutting) before the side plate edge has time to sever the fibers.

If a saw has sufficient power to pull that chain, so be it. But the same chain on a lower powered saw may bog down in the cut. So the individual saw, as well as the species of wood, can make a difference. Since you are sharpening your own chain, you can experiment with the angles, hook, depth gauge settings, as others have noted, and see what works for you. Might be different than a guy cutting different wood with a different saw.


Fair comment. I have also seen many chains ruined by hand filing, that I have to clean up with a grinder. Different R and L angles. Inconsistent angles all over the place. Top plate filed with a top bevel (and not PowerSharp chain!). Filed gullets down to the tie straps but still dull cutting edges.
It is not the tool as much as the person using it.


Yeah, people do not grasp the importance of dressing the wheels. Frequently.
1. to shape the wheel edge, which then shapes the cutters;
2. to regularly expose fresh, sharp, abrasive.

I lightly dress the wheel about once per loop, and anytime it stops grinding as well as it should.

Philbert

I'm cutting all hardwood with a ported 562 and 20" bar and a ported 385 with a 28" bar. This time of year is all dead standing trees along field edges.

 

[Philbert]

This time of year is all dead standing trees along field edges.

Probably also notice a difference between green and dead wood, depending on how dry it is.

Philbert

 

[chipper1]

I'm cutting all hardwood with a ported 562 and 20" bar and a ported 385 with a 28" bar. This time of year is all dead standing trees along field edges.

The cutting characteristics of frozen green wood will change more than frozen dead standing, cutting frozen green wood can be quite slow.

 

[chipper1]

Probably also notice a difference between green and dead wood, depending on how dry it is.

Philbert

I saw this the other day and thought of you.
There's a couple other vids on their channel, but for guys learning it's pretty good and I figured you could pass it on.
I found it odd that they are all about the 10 degree angle. I have found it helpful for self feeding on Oregon chains, but not as much so on the stihl chains, anyone else?
@junkman , there is a bit of the why's answered in this video at least the basics.

 

[Hedgerow]

The cutting characteristics of frozen green wood will change more than frozen dead standing, cutting frozen green wood can be quite slow.

We raced in frozen pine 12x12 cants up in grantsburg, WI...

I used square filed chains.. they cut great.

It was 6 degrees on race day. We raced for meager prize money and most importantly, drink tokens at T-Dawgs..

Good times..

 

[Hedgerow]

Man,
Did I get drunk that weekend...

 

[Skeans1]

Depends who you ask ,general rule i was told is softwoods have needles ,hardwoods have leaves ,douglas fir is considered a softwood but cuts harder than a pine ,if you have a 2x4 or a wooden beam from lumber store ,it is usually doug fir ,it cuts easier wet than does once dried out .

Doug fir is a fun animal isn’t it? How many other types of wood can you take a 5’ 200’ stem and take the hinge up to almost nothing? If they want to see a fun hardwood they should come play with some alder.


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[Skeans1]

That's one way to do it, but it will not cut like a tooth with some hook on it, but it will hold an edge longer(because the tooth is stronger). On a processor it would be fine, but what Adam is looking for is a self feeding chain, the chain in that picture looks as though you'd have to stand on it to make it feed, do you have any videos of it cutting.
I'd like to see some pictures of the setup you use for rakers too. Do you basically just set the raker based on the very back portion and grind off the front with that steep of an a. When I do them with a grinder I do them I set the grinder at an 85 degree angle, it leaves a little less to hit with a file when I need to drop them after a few hand filings. I set one on each side by hand and then set the depth of the grinder head using them as a template. Then I do the right side first and then the left as I have to adjust the wheel a slight bit lower on the left side to get them the same height on an earlier tecomec grinder. Sure I could adjust the vise, just haven't... I mainly grind rakers on used chains that they haven't been done on before or chains that have major damage and need to be taken back a lot.

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[chipper1]

We raced in frozen pine 12x12 cants up in grantsburg, WI...

I used square filed chains.. they cut great.

It was 6 degrees on race day. We raced for meager prize money and most importantly, drink tokens at T-Dawgs..

Good times..

Is that six degrees Mercan or cad lol. 6 degrees celsius isn't to bad for cutting.
I bet they did, they usually do if tuned for the wood.
I've had some logs I tossed in the woods that were cut in the fall full of sap, come winter they were a bear with a stock RS chain .

 

[Philbert]

I saw this the other day and thought of you.
@junkman , there is a bit of the why's answered in this video at least the basics.

Great video! Thanks for sharing that.

Of course, you need to be sort of a chain geek already to really understand it!

I found it odd that they are all about the 10 degree angle. I have found it helpful for self feeding on Oregon chains, but not as much so on the stihl chains, anyone else?

Oregon used to recommend the 10° 'down angle' (you drop the handle of your file down when filing, even though you are filing 'upwards') only on full-chisel chains. A few years ago, they started recommending it on more chains, including semi-chisel chains. An Oregon rep told me that it absolutely makes a difference in objective testing. *** But, Oregon only recommends using that file holder at 90° ***. That's a difference from those Vallorbe videos.

STIHL has always recommended a 90° (0° down angle) file position. I do not know if this is due to a difference in the profile of their cutters, or a technical disagreement, or . . . ? Whatever you choose - stick with it: wastes a lot of metal going back and forth.

Philbert

 

[chipper1]

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Thanks for the visual.
I see what you have going now, that works, especially on large chain. Why not tilt it to 50 and have the 10 degrees on the raker.

 

[chipper1]

Great video! Thanks for sharing that.

Of course, you need to be sort of a chain geek already to really understand it!


Oregon used to recommend the 10° 'down angle' (you drop the handle of your file down when filing, even though you are filing 'upwards') only of full-chisel chains. A few years ago, they started recommending it on more chains, including semi-chisel chains. An Oregon rep told me that it absolutely makes a difference in objective testing. *** But, Oregon only recommends using that file holder at 90° ***. That's a difference from those Vallorbe videos.

STIHL has always recommended a 90° (0° down angle) file position. I do not know if this is due to a difference in the profile of their cutters, or a technical disagreement, or . . . ? Whatever you choose - stick with it: wastes a lot of metal going back and forth.

Philbert

I thought of you when I saw it, it should be a great visual tool for guys learning, but yes those who get it will get it lol.
I was very surprised at how few followers they had. I was on their website looking at their new automated filer(the one that uses standard round files and a flat file) and found a link, although I had to open about 30 links before I found the youtube one as it wasn't in English.

I do the stihls flat and the Oregons at 10 when hand filing but I do them flat on the grinder, then I take a little extra off the raker to help them feed better. Once I start using a chain I don't grind them unless I hit something, the ones I'm grinding round come from others and from saws I've bought.

 

[Skeans1]

Thanks for the visual.
I see what you have going now, that works, especially on large chain. Why not tilt it to 50 and have the 10 degrees on the raker.

I use this on my square falling chains as well, it’s just simple easy works for everything I do from saw chains to harvester chains.
Here’s a video of the harvester

Then here’s some larger fir on a line

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