MS461 R&O. What else fits?And...issues...

[Trevj1]

Hey all, new guy here.

Been a happy owner of a 026 for a bunch of years, heated my house with it for several of those, but since I moved out in to BC, I find myself needing a bit bigger saw sometimes.

I had a couple pretty decent MS461's drop in my lap, via a faller relative. One has a broken tank, the other has a scored cylinder, supposedly.

Figuring to build at least one good saw, would like VERY much to build two.

Seems to be an awful lot of after market parts to suit the 440 series saws, and the 660 series, but less for the 460 series.

I guess the question is, what fits? I see mentions of hybrid saws, but not finding near as much info on exactly what those entail. Top end swaps? Machine work required? Not required?

One question I do have in particular, is whether I can use a 440 tank/handle in place of the 461's. Not even close?

Wide open question, but I would like to know what the options are as far as tracking down parts or whether biting the bullet on OEM is about it.

Thanks
Trev

 

[Gunn]

Theres not a lot you can do with a 461 as far as hybridizing (is that even a word). The cylinder and crankcase are unique to the 461.

The crank, tank, air intake system, and a lot of misc stuff are interchangeable with the 460. The 460 coil is an easy way to mod a 461 and make it unlimited.

 

[Zombiechopper]

Hey Trev,

for that saw and the parts you need oem is the way to go. You probably just need a piston and a tank assembly. Read the threads on removing aluminum transfer from the bore. You can most likely save the jug. If the saws were free or cheap you could still have two great saws for just the cost of a piston and tank.

My advice would be to stop thinking about modding them and just get them fixed and working right. Then start doing mods one at a time.

 

[Zombiechopper]

Gunn is saying that 460 tanks fit. I wouldn't know, but if that's the case you can buy a used or aftermarket tank and save some bucks.

 

[Zombiechopper]

On both saws, but especially the scored one do a vac/pressure test before tearing it apart. You need to know why it seized in order to fix it.

 

[MustangMike]

The 461 & 460 have a lot of the same parts, with the major difference being the 4 port cylinder. I think a 440 tank holder may work, but you will end up with a smaller fuel tank, not a good thing.

OEM parts have really come down in price recently, so don't be afraid to check them out.

I would use the best parts to get one working first, then work on getting a second one working as you learn the little mods to make the first one stronger. I would start by adding a dp muffler cover (they are cheap and bolt right on) and pulling the limiter tabs on the carb so you can tune it properly with that modification. Then maybe advance the timing a bit.

There is info in the threads here for all of it.

Welcome to the lunatic asylum!!!

 

[Trevj1]

Me, I've been in a few asylums like this before! Soon enough, the inmates start running the place, no?

Thanks for passing on what you know. Yeah, I am actually aiming towards two essentially stock saws, not looking to go nuts on the mods so much. Already had my eye on the dual port and the removal of the plastic limiters off the carb so it can actually be adjusted, but mostly, just want to be able to hand back one in essentially good shape to the Faller, and have the other as a 'big' saw for when a 16 inch bar just inna gonn cuttit. First, make the saw work, then work as intended, then make them work the way I would like. Maybe.

The report so far... Had the tanks off both, The front mount was broke off on one side, and there was a pretty good crack across the front of the tank, at the very front upper surface of the tank itself. Fits with what I was told, "Hit by a tree, won't hold gas".

Looking in through the ex port, and with pretty good light, I cannot see any signs of scoring on the one that is supposedly scored. It WAS about 50 percent plugged up with sawdust and mung, and probably not cooling very well, but... More to follow when the cylinder comes off. The other saw looked even nicer inside, with lots of oil present in both.

Getting these apart was a bit like an archeology dig, and I sorta figure these saws have never been in a shop, let alone cleaned out. Some fun! Dusty fir and pine bark! Sorta surprised not to find a pine beetle or two burrowing around! I'll see what I can do to get then scrubbed out a wee bit...

Have begun assembling the supposedly good motor on the good tank, and getting the wires etc. to lay correctly and esp the grommet through the motor case was...fun...

Oh yeah. Both saws are Arctic models with the heated grips and carb plate. More wires. Ack! It actually fits together pretty well, and I am pretty glad that they used mating connectors that cannot be connected backwards.

Somebody want to explain to the newbie what an R model has that the regular one does not? Dunno if this is or is not. Got dual falling teeth, a roller chain guard, and a large rubber protector in the back of the chain side cover. Just normal?

With regard to the 440 handle having a smaller tank, well, no big deal to me. If I figured it would fit, I would be able to live with it. Same if a smaller cylinder would drop in, if it were available cheap. I do not need the saw to run races, I just need it to cut bigger wood than what I can with what else I got. Got time, not so much money. I see several guys with hybrid saws in their sig lines, and was wondering what those were composed of. Knowing ahead of time, what fits what, will aid me while looting under work benches amongst the broken bits I run across.
A bone stock saw will do what I need. Actually, way more. But it is such a quantum leap up from what I have had, that I figure even throttled back, it'll do.

I found the tech manuals and pulled a couple down. Thanks huge, out to the guys responsible. Been poking through the one for this saw, absorbing bits and pieces as I go.
Dunno why ever maker does not make these available easily.

Enough for now.

Trev

 

[Gunn]

R models are the wrap handle variation. They came with 3/4 wrap around handle, high out put oiler, large clutch cover with dual dogs, and roller chain catcher as standard equipment.

In regards to the 440 tank, its supposed to fit, but they are narrower and their plastics don't exactly match up with a 461. You'll most likely need the whole intake assembly off a 440 if you're planning on using a 440 tank.

 

[Trevj1]

Thanks Gunn, that clears that up for me.

Trev

 

[MustangMike]

The typical hybrid is a 046/460 jug on a 044/440 frame. It provides more displacement on a lighter chassis. The cylinder has to be modified to fit, and the merits of a hybrid are hotly debated.

It is not an option for you, as 461s are 4 transfer port saws and the 440 and 460 are 2 transfer port saws. The 461 is a VG saw, and you will be much better off using OEM or high quality AM parts and building it like it was. On the AM scene, Meteor has a VG reputation, and there are some good reviews on the Hyway kits. I believe our sponsor (HLSupply) carries them. (Here you go: http://www.hlsproparts.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=461+cylinder&Submit=)

The most expensive part you have to deal with is the tank holder, and you may be able to repair it with the help of one of those $25 aluminum pieces that are intended to strengthen & protect the tank holder. http://www.ebay.com/itm/STIHL-CHAIN...hash=item51df20bd94:m:mlETb_5YC2VylZrIlLi4wtA

Once you buck a good size piece of wood with a good running 461, you wont want to go backwards in performance, trust me on this. A strong running saw with a sharp chain is always a good thing to have, and it is never "too good".

Best of luck to you, and keep us posted. Those saws should run very nice with a dp cover.

 

[Trevj1]

Tht aluminum cover is not going to help this one. I was trying to figure out if I could graft the pieces back together on the front mount that is broken right off, and it doesn't look too likely without some pretty major fab work.

The consensus on repairing leaky tanks, seems to be that you are delaying the inevitable, and putting off replacing it, for some time when it will be even less convenient. The location of the break, across the front top of the tank, seems a recipe for having to redo it again later. Maybe I'd try if I still had access to the shop I used to work in, but I don't. Used to be in aircraft structural repairs, now on a farm. Kinda miss the tools and supplies, the bosses, mostly not so much...

I'll see to some pictures. I should be in to town this week and ill check out the cost of the OEM stuff I need.

Thanks!

Trev

 

[Trevj1]

Well, still have not got pictures. Lambing is going full swing, and in the first two nights we dropped 34 lams out of 17 or 18 ewes, so it was hoppin'.

Bit the bullet, ordered in the OEM tank and handle assy. $180, but it come fast, and I know it fits.

Other stuff later, when I get a chance to play with the saws...

Trev

 

[Trevj1]

Awright, mad rush taking a break, found myself standing in front of the saws with the realization that I had no particular panics to deal with, so assembled the 'good' tank, to the good engine and topped up the tank.

Barked on the second pull with the choke on, clicked up to the high idle position and away it went. Put bar and chain on, adjusted and ran a cut through a block of firewood. Seemed to run pretty well. Halfway through second cut, running not quite wide open, and it just quits. Started immediately, like, half a pull and purring, couple pokes of the throttle, and try another cut, and it winds up then quits. Repeated a couple more times. Called 'er done and stuck it in the shed for a ponder.

Does this sound at all like a fuel line with a hole in it? Have not pulled it apart to see, while I ponder. Vent on the tank seems to be working, it bled a bit of ooze out while the saw sat in the sun. 50:1 mix, Premium and Stihl oil. Figuring to swap the carb over from the broken tank to this one, too. See if it stays or goes away, or if it repeats at all.

Carb kit, gas line, or? Bets?

Trev

 

[Canadian farm boy]

Spark plug maybe? I've seen plugs do weird things. When any small engine acts "funny" one of the first things I always try is replacing the plug.

If a new plug doesn't help the next easy thing I would try is when the saw acts up again and quits while in the middle of a cut turn the saw on its side and remove the gas cap, reinstall and then restart the saw and try another cut. If the saw runs long enough to make a full cut or two before it dies again you need to either clean or replace your fuel tank vent.

 

[Trevj1]

Yeah, tried that, popping the cap. No suction or pressure. Didn't seem to affect anything.

Will swap the plug over and try that too. Easy to try without touching anything else, so that first.
Thanks!

Trev

 

[MustangMike]

Did you change the fuel filter? Also, make sure the carb is not pinching the gas line, that will kill it fast.

You did put fresh fuel in it? Also, most on this site would recommend a little richer than 50:1 (like 40:1).

Is your carb adjusted correctly? Did you pull the limiters?

 

[Trevj1]

Did not change anything. Simply swapped the supposedly good tank on to the supposedly good engine, as an assembly.

Been pondering if the supposed scored piston was in fact a fuel delivery or carb issue, as, though I have not pulled the jug off the engine that the tank came off, it seems pretty decent shape to me.

When I get back to it, will try the simplest things first and work from there. Like as not, that will be the spark plug (fast AND easy!), then move on to swapping over the carbs and then playing inside the tank.

No, didn't change the filter. Gas is from a jug I mixed a week or two back from the first jerry can of premium I have bought in about ever, maybe three days or so before I mixed it. Limiters are still in place, have not mucked with any adjustments. Maybe a little more oil than exactly 50:1, but close enough. 4.78 liters (on the side of the gas can, IIRC), to 100 and a bit ML of oil (using a Stihl 100 ML mini bottle, to measure from a 1 liter mix oil jug).

The guy that gave me the two saws said the one was running good but had a tree hit it, and the other was scored (though there does not seem to be evidence of that) and I think he was thinking that because of it not running well and properly. Hmm? Would you think a saw was scored, if it ran until it seemed to get hot, then quit? Maybe?

Bedtime. Long bloody day, going to be a long week.

Trev

 

[MustangMike]

Check your carb settings. Make sure that Hi screw is all the way out (or at least one turn). A lean saw will cook fast.