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Milling chain zero to ten degrees

Discussion in 'Milling' started by Lightning Performance, Sep 9, 2019.

  1. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    As it says 404 or 3/8.
    Zero or five or ten degree cutters.

    Anyone running zero degrees semi chisel cutters?

    Anyone running round ground chisel converted to a square ripping chain at zero degrees?

    Will they be about the same square or round ground at zero degrees on chisel cutters?

    I can only convert round ground to square with a file. No square grinders near by me.

    Thoughts?
    Pics?
    Raker/depth gauge heights your using?



    My long bar is 167dl of chisel skip 404 now being filed from round oe Oregon down to square @10 or 15*. Not sure yet if it will cut well @10* This chain is just for plowing through wood fast as possible.

    My full comp 404 Oregon chisel 117dl flys @20* with 0.035 drags.

    Drags are @ 0.040 and better off the roll on most of the 404 and 404H. The chain sucks for felling or anything like this. Just grabby with the high seven degree angle of attack. Not user friendly. Too much bite at even 25* on the top plate.

    The cookie slab chain I use is RS full 117dl and it goes through perfect off the roll.

    Have not used much 3/8 but 15* cutters and 0.035 drags had some nicer faces. 10* should be smoother but slower. Have not tried five or zero on 3/8" Not sure it can handle it. 114dl is long as I go with 3/8 for now.
    Most if my bars are sprocket tipped so they can pull 3/8 if need for high grade hardwood. At that point I might resaw with LP or a band.

    The beam tool should have the best finish on the face of the beam. Zero square in 3/8 or 3/8 lp @ 5-10* would be great and I do plan on trying it soon.... like this week. Thing is these chains need to also survive old oaks, crotches and locust. Cherry cuts like like butter compared to them. Maple is all over the place hard soft figured. Plays hell on 3/8.

    I know more than a few of you reading this are milling but never sign in to post. Get your ass in here.
     
  2. mdavlee

    mdavlee Hillbilly grinder

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    If speed milling is your goal stay around 20 degree top plate square.
     
  3. huskihl

    huskihl Sausage Fingers Forever

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    With a round file, a 0° top plate results in a 90° (or 0) side plate. Not sure it'll sever fibers on the side. Or if that'll matter. But if you were square filing a 0° top plate, the side could end up with a 20 or 30° angle still on it, depending on how much you rolled the file.

    I always figured most rough sawn lumber ended up going through a planer or sander if it mattered. I'd go 15-20 like Mike mentioned and get done quicker
     
  4. mdavlee

    mdavlee Hillbilly grinder

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    Milling chain was painfully slow to me. 40% longer cuts and way more fuel and heat into the saws.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  5. Stump Shot

    Stump Shot Old *pretty boy dipstick of Quality

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    Have only used milling chain and settled on 5 degrees as a combo of speed and smoothness of cut for my needs. The less angle the smoother the plank will be. Tooth and raker uniformity comes into play when a smooth cut is desired as well, it takes a good bit of time to file a good milling chain that is exactingly uniform. Planks cut with a good chain can be used as is without planing for a more rustic look. This is much better than a band mill can produce.
     
  6. Marshy

    Marshy WFO Cutting

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    I do 5 deg on my Foley then move the vice in/out to increase the steepness of the cutting edge side on the side plate.

    My theory on semi chisel is you have more cutting surface in the wood than you do with a full chisel square or round and that makes it slower.
     
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  7. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    Oh goodie feedback :cool:

    Not too worried about the face finish right now, planning ahead. If I want them smooth it will take even longer to mill at zero with an even stoned chain. We know stoning the chain, which I have not done yet, will leave a better face. Just getting my ducks all in a row before tackling the real "money wood" for the least amount of waste.

    The big stuff over four feet wide will be a bit crowned and cupped. Even the fat belly has a bit of sag. That can be righted somewhat if I'm cutting under 46" wide with the 60" bar. The powerhead weight hangs some so it will take out the sag on the powerhead side and on the opposite side I'm gonna start running a double post. Hoping the vibes will be less not more with a triple contact point. If it works well I will be drilling the big bar for a direct bolt up mount with no clamp. Less chance of the bar moving with a defined mounting point imo. That should help when I get the big power head mounted and kicking ass.

    I'm dying to get the bigger saws in the mix. Still keep coming up short cause *s-word breaks in life and just won't fix it's self :confused:
     
  8. Leeroy

    Leeroy Well-Known OPE Member

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    I usually run square filed chain at 0-5 top plate for milling. Probably close to 80 side plate. Not sure on depth gauges but pretty low compared to a ripping chain.
    I happen to run semi skip for logging, so that's what I mill with. 3/8 .50 on an 066. Hardwood or pine. Fast and smooth finish in my opinion. I try to mimic a circular saw bit to some extent.
     
  9. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    Do you know what angle is on the bottom of your top plate?

    I plan to go with much more "under the top" angle on the 404 than a 3/8" cutter will survive. Thin the 3/8 top plate and they get hot. 404 never does on my setup. Going to square file and thin down that top plate more. At some point the cutter will suffer. Should be faster with 404. Testing will tell the tale. If it does go faster the next step imo is to narrow the cutters and stone it. Guessing I should use full skip to test. Less cutters to ruin.

    3/8 0.050 is all my smaller bars up to a 28" ES. I do have one 3/8" ES WN in 0.050 to get a loop of LP on and try out a 114dl

    Was just staring at some nice red cedar up to 24"w in 4-6' lengths last weekend....could almost smell it. Soft wood to test that LP in off the roll. LP should go quick.
     
  10. Leeroy

    Leeroy Well-Known OPE Member

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    I'd guess 40
     
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  11. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    1. How many drive links on your chain?
    2. What brand?
    3. Did it stretch?
    4. Standard bar oil or veggie?

    My biggest worry about trying cheaper chains in 3/8" is stretch.
     
  12. Leeroy

    Leeroy Well-Known OPE Member

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    Think it's 84dl on a 24" 72 on a 20
    Oregon
    No stretching as I like to use chains that I've already used for felling and bucking.
    Only time I've used canola oil was milling clapboards off a 6" White Pine cant
    Ms460 w 16" b&c
     
  13. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    Good news.

    I have to tackle some big uglies like white oak and locust to make more done as is boards smooth as possible for my outside use.

    All my chains go somewhere to be used first. I don't buy dedicated mill chains. The hundred plus drive links get stuffed in hardwood stumps, when possible, till they settle in or used for bucking.

    I have Stihl chains, Oregon and others like Archer. These are about the only two that don't continue to stretch much on the longer bars. Archer has not seen the big bar yet. It continues to stretch on my medium mill but maybe it needs more oil. When they do stay wet on the mill they settle in nicely on the big two brands. If it continues I know they need more oil or better quality oil. 404 is pretty much one run and it sets right with no more stretch. Hot days vs cold days messes with it very little. Long bar with a cold rig.... first cut it gets loose. Second cut it comes right back tight when the bar warms up and expands. This is true for most everything I'd guess running more than a hundred drive links.

    Never really run over a twenty eight bar for work. Thirty two sometimes on the 066. The Archer seems ok on that with 0.063 3/8" 105dl. Initially it stretches a lot imo.

    Most of the long loops are still at 20* or 15*

    Just re-ground a whole bunch of skip chisel and semi @10* to test. It all hit nails and spikes. All 404 0.063. Next up is trying the 3/8" 0.050 @10 then 0*.
     
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  14. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    Update on 404 117DL skip and full comp, semi chisel and chisel loops.

    This post is a book like a page or three long and then some :coleman:

    The wood is 32" old red oak but green in moisture content @ 40%. Basic chainsaw bar oil was used in these runs milling. Canola oil is waiting to run in the 3ft+ wide white pine I have waiting in 11 to 14ft base or butt logs. Might try to move some of it. It will require running the big Cannon belly bar with 404 @ 167DL's. :cool:
    Bigger logs of hardwoods are awaiting their turn, soon, now that we have some decent weather here on the swampy east coast.


    All info listed here is 117DL's of 404 0.063 unless otherwise noted.

    0° top plate angle was/is joke in round file or ground. And yes, I did try reworking the semi chisel/chipper chain side plate, no go. Chip vs dust is a nobrainer. Mike, and others, were right, painfully slow like factory dedicated milling chains and not "that smooth" IMO. 404 full comp semi chisel, full comp chisel or full skip chisel and full skip semi chisel. Never bothered to try any of it square filed with the chisel cutters. I'm pretty sure it was not worth the time to do but the forward bite may have been better and time of the cut reduced slightly :(

    One thing to note my depth gauges are in the 0.035+ range with two thirds of the cutter available. I have been down to 0.042 on the drags/depth gauges with near new cutters.

    Two different 1122 powerheads were used during my runs. Both were poly wheel 660's, NOT ported but matched intake tracks, gasket matched exhaust with dual port gutted cans, OEM type screens in one with OEM muffler gutted and the other is a Hyway DP with a gutted can, screens intacked but a bit larger. Saw are the same same for all genersl purposes and perform as such. Base gaskets intacked with Stihl OEM "Stihl" marked jugs. All have a decomp and they are not 066 jugs or Gilar's. My 066 with mods was not used on this setup. It lacks a bigger HD OE oil pump that has yet to show up in the course of six months of waiting. It won't never show so let me know if you have one or the guts for one available at this time, not next year. Please and Thank You. I'm well aware that they can be purchased new in parts or whole.

    Moving on :)

    Semi chisel filed round or full chisel round or square filed is slow with 404 @ 10° and not that smooth of a finish face IMO. Not worth the time it wasted but damn, the Oregon 16H took on the nails with no problems in semi chisel full skip or full comp.

    12° round ground or filed was about the same as a 10° on all accounts.
    I did one skip chisel chain square filed out of the bunch @12° Nothing to report there as expected.

    Working back up in angle. 15° 404 round cutter semi chisel was faster than 10° and just as smooth in the face of the cut surface as 10° or 12° IMO. 15° square file chisel full comp was maybe a bit faster than full skip with no real change in durability. The big gain was forward bite. It will almost self feed square filed. RS full and Oregon semi chisel full skip was the flavor of that day.
    Maybe more chains should have been tried like full comp semi chisel, meh.
    15° or 20° semi chisel round ground or filed 404 is the longest lasting cutter I ran vs the full chisel version....bang for the buck is there. I got two long cuts, 11' 6" logs, hollowin places, no haert wood at one end, with squirel condo's, their "collectibles" :facepalm: , *s-word, piss, dirt, glass, tarps, insulation, cuts with nails, sand, bla bla bla. Like a Mack truck. Oregon 16H was the loop. Skip or full comp mattered little in da chit. These semi chisel H loops are harder cutters and will be sidelined and saved for messy material or big locust trees.

    RS 404 @ 20° square file is the fastest hammer yet! On my mill vs bank for buck and time saved in the cut compared to durability and easiest/quickest to hand file when dull. Um....so stay tuned or KNOT! Nice felling chain also...big chips in old oaks or stumps. It does have major drawbacks in "dirty wood" of any kind. I will refer to dirty wood as, foreign objects or, steel, glass, rocks, sand, plastic, dirty/sandy bark and lighting hit wood as dirty wood. Now, next up is where things get interesting.

    25° square filed skip in Oregon, RS or Archer full comp full chisel was fast but suffers in durability vs 20° semi chisel or semi chisel H on my mill in clean wood ymmv. 0.035 or more on the drags had some serious forward bite and the winch was not really needed on a slight down hill run. Up hill the winch helped a bunch on 15° and 20° especially full comp semi chisel round filed or ground. Square file only lasted a bit longer with full chisel cutters but has no durability in nails, rocks, spikes and such junk. In closing all the BS talked up about Square this and Square that is pure BS in dirty wood, sandy bark or metal of any kind. Please, no more rants how great square is. I tests and assess the situation at hand and square appears to not be the ticket unless the wood is pristine inside and free of all junk and/or sand in the bark. It does handle figured or crotch wood better with less drag in the grain changes. Sharpening chain is a poor use of time on site and does little to get things done in the real world of unknown foreign objects. I'm sure you all have Xray vision, right? :confused:

    Redundancy was intentional to make things cristal clear. Most of what I read or read on the net is clear "ass" mud :rolleyes: So I quit wasting my time and just test my own theories about chain durability vs speed of cut :cool: vs how bad it *frenched up my chains cutters on the last pass.

    Most have not considered six hard passes with any file in any chain takes much long than a quick swipe or two and some fuel to get back up to speed and be in the cut throwing chips again.

    Accessory oil feed option were not used on purpose because I felt it was not need with these loops of 117DL and an internal roller nose GB bar. The bar has no burrs or damage or signs of overheating with this setup. Granted that in the long long haul an accessory oil feed system might improve the speed slightly or possibly reduce wear on the chains chassis. I have seen no ill effects to date.

    After rereading this last portion it seems a bit jumbled and runs on. I don't really give a *f-word. If you do, move on :D

    Pump gas 89-91 octane E-10 was used to keep it real. 25% VP Full Synthetic FD rated air cooled two stroke small engine oil was used with 75% Supertec cheapo regular two smoke oil and then mixed at 32-1 on full width of this mills cut, notably 33" max width. NO Stihl oil of any kind will ever be used by me in any tool or toy because IMO it is all TRASH!!! I hate their fuel stabilizer, instant headache and many other reason. That would be a whole nutha thread. 33" cut but using 40-1 on lesser width wood around 28" a few times in the mix as it came up to be milled. I have no need for higher octane ratings based on the fact that LL100 is five bucks a gallon here for Avation fuel and just not need with 175 to 180lbs compression. Plus the 100LL does not burn completely IMO at this compression ratio. You can run it if you like and huff the fumes out the exhaust. I have been there and done that. It smeels great when your not wearing your respirator so, enjoy the fumes if you like o_O. I wear a 3M half face with 100 series filters. Ear plugs with quality Impact Sport ear muffs keeps my sanity till the saw pipes are built, coming soon just to shut the damn thing up. Sound deadening and exhaust redirect is the goal there. I may post a thread on that and/or offer them up after extensive testing is completed.

    The saws have suffered zero ill effects and the same rim and rims is/are still going, Stihl OEM 7 pin and hanging tough. I do have Oregon power match rims in 7 and 8 pin I run on the 83DL chains. That is a true 28" bar not the "coolaid" OE one :confused:. Those rims and the saw are just fine with a sprocket nosed 404 Oregon power match bar in 0.063 gauge. That can be run with a stock oil pump if you keep the RPMs up and don't cut Y's or locust. Locust is it's own deal and is dealt with as such. Dry locust requires the fat HO oil system or some accessory oil feed on the bar in anything over 80DL's in 404, umkaaay.

    Next up is 3/8" 0.050 in semi chisel, full chisel, three brands, semi skip maybe and full comp backed up with full skip. Need to get some full skip. These loops will be 91DL, 93DL, maybe some semi skip square RSLPJBCB:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:OCDBADCAD, who can *f-word remember them all, just to see how that rolls. The 0.050 Skweel fat nose 114DL is waiting for it's turn. Thee-eights LP will be the flavor when I get some loops or possibly a roll of sumtin to run I mean burn down. 114DL's is long as I dare with LP or Picco, maybe.

    This recording is more for me than you so GFY:p:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:



    Rant done!
    :campeon2:
     
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  15. Marshy

    Marshy WFO Cutting

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    Can I get an executive summary in 100 words or less? :risas3:
     
  16. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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  17. Lightning Performance

    Lightning Performance Here For The Long Haul!

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    RS 404 kinda sucked at fifteen degrees in the Walnut wood. It is a different chain at twenty degrees top plate with lots of hook. Really different. Looks easy to square up with a file. I have two slide rail file jigs to try out. A square file might work in a round mount. Square peg....round world.

    H skip chains remain at fifteen for the long haul. Ten is just slower, same face. I cut through six inch steel spikes yesterday. Bent two cutters lost two cutters. Hitting them at a forty five degree angle....does bad things to muh chainsaw chain.

    LGX 3/8 0.050 is going to be starting at ten with 114dl. Beam faces, finished posts or siding.

    Not sure LP or Picco can withstand the strain of five or ten on the top plate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
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  18. Al Smith

    Al Smith Pinnacle OPE Member

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    I haven't done much chainsaw milling .Too much time and way too much work .However what little I've done I didn't do a thing to the chain .Round filed chisel, log cut at an angle not straight cross grain .It was otherwise fire wood that was salvaged for lumber and was to be planed any way .Even at that is was smoother than a circle saw .
     
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