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Bummed with my cross 359 cylinder. Would you run it? Updated!!!

Stevetheboatguy

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I ordered a pair of these to have on hand. And had a chance to use one, but I didn't. I know it will start, run and probably be reliable. But I didn't want to use it and have the saw feel low on power. The ports are much much smaller. They look to be good quality, but more restricted.

IMG_20180103_141104671.jpg IMG_20180103_141113343.jpg IMG_20180103_141117572.jpg IMG_20180103_141125274.jpg IMG_20180103_141128539.jpg

Here are the pictures of the original and the cross side by side. Do you think the performance difference between them would be noticable? Worth trying it how it is, or try learning to grind them open?



Steven
 

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Wouldn’t take much effort to slap it on and run it a little to see how it feels. Will probably be down on power compared to stock but why not. Like you said, good cylinder to practice grinding on;). And if you run it first you’ll be able to record your gains
 

RIDE-RED 350r

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Also, smaller ports will mean more velocity as the mix moves from through the intake into the case and up through the transfers into the cylinder. More velocity can be a good thing as long as they don't get so small that overall performance drops off because they just can't flow enough. We all know that hogging things out too big will make a peaky, non-user-friendly saw that loses alot of power with a mild drop in RPM under a load. You may have a cylinder there that makes for a 359 that revs quicker than normal and has a broader powercurve but might not spool as high on the top end as the OEM cylinder.

Myself, I would be curious to try it as-is and see how it runs noting max RPM achievable after a little break-in and a good tune. Might be a torque-monster!
 

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I'm thinking it's possible for it to have better performance. The smaller intake port matches the intake boot better, the transfer uppers should have a tad bit more velocity, and I don't think the exhaust is far enough off to notice.
Looks like you and I are thinking on the same wavelength, Jim
 

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I just dont like the uppers, the rest could be an improvement.

Run it and see how it feels.
I’m thinking the uppers choke down a little too much. What’s your thoughts on them Doc?
 

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I don't know about Doc, but after he mentioned them I looked again... The shapes are kind of weird for uppers, and I wonder about the angles. With those more ovaled shapes they will open in more of a progressive manner rather than "right now". I'm still learning, but I would think that might not be the best upper design.... I might flatten them out and put some rearward angle on the one closest to the intake side if they don't have it already. Beyond that, I would run it as-is
 

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I don't know about Doc, but after he mentioned them I looked again... The shapes are kind of weird for uppers, and I wonder about the angles. With those more ovaled shapes they will open in more of a progressive manner rather than "right now". I'm still learning, but I would think that might not be the best upper design.... I might flatten them out and put some rearward angle on the one closest to the intake side if they don't have it already. Beyond that, I would run it as-is
Again....get out of my head!!!!!!!!!

:hello:
 

Stevetheboatguy

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Thanks for the input guys. I will get it on one eventually and do some side by side. Cross vs oem.
I would do it right now, but the sister to this one is still half smashed in a box. Hopefully I can find a recoil before too long and get it back together.
I'm not too disappointed in the kit because of the price I paid. Heck I have paid more for just a piston. But someone that didn't buy one on the black Friday sale may have expected something more closely matching to oem.


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Thanks for the input guys. I will get it on one eventually and do some side by side. Cross vs oem.
I would do it right now, but the sister to this one is still half smashed in a box. Hopefully I can find a recoil before too long and get it back together.
I'm not too disappointed in the kit because of the price I paid. Heck I have paid more for just a piston. But someone that didn't buy one on the black Friday sale may have expected something more closely matching to oem.


Steven
Looking forward to the comparison. Only wish I had some parts I could offer up to help you get your box o’ saw running.
 

Stevetheboatguy

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Looking forward to the comparison. Only wish I had some parts I could offer up to help you get your box o’ saw running.

I have most everything to put it back together. Just waiting on the recoil and a few little things. I'm going to get it together as far as I can. Then once they are both broken in I will try and twist someone's arm into helping me get some side by side videos.

No promises it will be soon, but it will get done. Has to get done it's for science. Right?


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I have most everything to put it back together. Just waiting on the recoil and a few little things. I'm going to get it together as far as I can. Then once they are both broken in I will try and twist someone's arm into helping me get some side by side videos.

No promises it will be soon, but it will get done. Has to get done it's for science. Right?


Steven
Yes sir! For science! Lol! No hurry bud
 

drf256

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I’ve seen saws run better with smaller intakes. I’ve gone smaller on my more recent builds and have see better throttle response in many cases. The length and smallest choked down area in the tract has to be examined. If a boot opening is only X area, opening the port X x 2 will just decrease velocity. It needs to be maybe 10-20% bigger than the smallest area provided it’s not super long.

Those uppers look pathetic. There’s gonna be a lot of velocity, but there just isn’t enough area I see there for that engine to breathe through. Then there are the entry angles. More proof that nothing beats OEM.

The markup in price for OEM parts is for R&D and QC. The raw materials cost the same or less in some cases. Profit margins, that I’m not so sure of, but as always, you get what you pay for.
 
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dustinwilt68

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Yet another reason I generally pay for the OEM parts, especially on the internals, I don't mind a AM av mounts, or cover, but moving parts and electrical is generally better to save your pennies and buy the good stuff, just my 2 cents.
 

drf256

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Clay imprints help me a lot when deciding what to do with ports.

You’d be suprised by what optics do to perception of size, just like porn. Always blame the angles when in doubt.

Here’s a Stihl 026 inner intake port clay imprint. Also an ex port imprint. Both stock, but makes one ponder stuff.

I do believe that the Stihl 026 intake arrangement is why they bog off idle if allowed to sit too long. They go from a tiny Venturi, to a big dead space, then back to a tiny port. My next gen will include JB weld in the outer port to make it match the smaller boot exit shown in the pic. If you compress air and then allow expansion, it will cool and allow less atomization of fuel. Then it puddles. Then you get the big bad bog when you pull the trigger.

Look at the inner port plating imprint, the outer port, and the intake boot exit (end of boot cut off to illustrate).
F06D637C-17F2-4E13-AC72-BC907BD55802.jpeg 4598CCE7-46A3-4783-A905-F65F942431A4.jpeg

Look at the stock exhaust port opening. We know gasses will expand, but where will that happen? Is keeping the Ex port tight gonna act more like a smaller primary header? Should the outer port be opened along with the muff entry? Remember that 90% Of ex pressure is vented in first 10* of Ex opening. That’s how Blowdown occurs and transfer pressure is allowed to flow or be stratified.
We’ve heard of “grunt spacer/gaskets” that are bolted to extend an ex port and are supposed to add grunt.

@tree monkey piped 066 has a smaller diameter pipe exit (stinger?) than the size of the Ex flange. He says making it bigger will kill the saw.

Does any of this make sense?

I say run the AM jug. See what happens. My guess is that it will be a dud.
 

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Clay imprints help me a lot when deciding what to do with ports.

You’d be suprised by what optics do to perception of size, just like porn. Always blame the angles when in doubt.

Here’s a Stihl 026 inner intake port clay imprint. Also an ex port imprint. Both stock, but makes one ponder stuff.

I do believe that the Stihl 026 intake arrangement is why they bog off idle if allowed to sit too long. They go from a tiny Venturi, to a big dead space, then back to a tiny port. My next gen will include JB weld in the outer port to make it match the smaller boot exit shown in the pic. If you compress air and then allow expansion, it will cool and allow less atomization of fuel. Then it puddles. Then you get the big bad bog when you pull the trigger.

Look at the inner port plating imprint, the outer port, and the intake boot exit (end of boot cut off to illustrate).
View attachment 104917 View attachment 104918

Look at the stock exhaust port opening. We know gasses will expand, but where will that happen? Is keeping the Ex port tight gonna act more like a smaller primary header? Should the outer port be opened along with the muff entry? Remember that 90% Of ex pressure is vented in first 10* of Ex opening. That’s how Blowdown occurs and transfer pressure is allowed to flow or be stratified.
We’ve heard of “grunt spacer/gaskets” that are bolted to extend an ex port and are supposed to add grunt.

@tree monkey piped 066 has a smaller diameter pipe exit (stinger?) than the size of the Ex flange. He says making it bigger will kill the saw.

Does any of this make sense?

I say run the AM jug. See what happens. My guess is that it will be a dud.
Makes a lot of sense Doc, thanks for taking the time to get into such detail.
I think that a larger section of the intake tract can act as a plenum storing the next big gulp of mix for the next intake pulse....sometimes. Maybe not in the intake boot itself as it is pretty far away from the port window. But I wonder if the intake entry on the cylinder being smaller than the window itself creates this plenum affect. I’m still experimenting with this theory so I can’t say to what degree it works before puddling occurs. Just trying to imagine what the flow looks like at 12k rpm.
 

drf256

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Tough to say.

The plenum does come to mind, so does air and fluid flow dynamics. Also, vacuum flow and pressure flow are different.

On a V8 Big Block Rectangular port Chevy, would anyone in their right mind make the intake manifold area the same size as the carb venturis? Never.

There's a balance that occurs and where that lies is the mystery.

Sometimes it's clear by theory, and at other times we stumble upon it by accident and scratch our heads.
 
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