Re Creating a Classic 046

MustangMike · Jun 16, 2018

Well, frustration today. Thought I had 4 good tank handles, turns out as I cleaned them off, one had a repair that was leaking and two other tanks are cracked.

Thankfully they now make AM 460 handles, but ordering them will delay my getting these things running.

stihl_head1982 · Jun 16, 2018

MustangMike said:
Well, frustration today. Thought I had 4 good tank handles, turns out as I cleaned them off, one had a repair that was leaking and two other tanks are cracked.

Thankfully they now make AM 460 handles, but ordering them will delay my getting these things running.

Any assurance that the AM handles are worthy of using? Just curious.

MustangMike · Jun 17, 2018

I've got a 440 am handle on my Hybrid, and all the Asian 660 ones seem to be just fine.

It helps to use an OEM control lever, but I like the translucent fuel tanks even better than OEM.

MustangMike · Jun 17, 2018

First thing I did this morning was inventory my 046/460 parts and order most of what I need to complete a few saws. A few things I think I will have to get from the dealer (Air Filter Mount/Flange and Chain Brake linkage). Was ordering so much small stuff I had to call the Credit Card Co and tell them I had not been hacked!

Then I installed new bearings in a set of 046 case halves and temporarily put the 046 D jug on it. I first put the oil pump on the one half to act as a bearing stop, then used my HF heat gun to heat the bearing pockets and was able to installed both bearings with gloved fingers (had a hammer and socket at the ready, but no need).

Did not need to use Scotch Brite on the crank, surprisingly it cleaned up real nice with some WD-40 and a paper towel. Heated the center of the bearing on the clutch side and was able to hand push the crank in, but the next side needed a bit of tapping with a hammer, then a little bit of draw in with the case bolts.

No matter which side I do first, the case pins always seem to stop me from snugging up the second side.

You could spin the crank no problem w/o a flywheel, but I imitated something I saw TM do, tapped the crank back and forth a bit, and now it feels like I greased the bearings! Very smooth!

I put the D jug on with two bolts, and with an OEM piston the squish is .030. Wow, must have been close to .050 with a base gasket!

Anyone know if a Meteor Piston has a taller crown? Would like to get the squish down into the .020s. and I'm not going to belt sand the base!

drf256 · Jun 18, 2018

MustangMike said:
First thing I did this morning was inventory my 046/460 parts and order most of what I need to complete a few saws. A few things I think I will have to get from the dealer (Air Filter Mount/Flange and Chain Brake linkage). Was ordering so much small stuff I had to call the Credit Card Co and tell them I had not been hacked!

Then I installed new bearings in a set of 046 case halves and temporarily put the 046 D jug on it. I first put the oil pump on the one half to act as a bearing stop, then used my HF heat gun to heat the bearing pockets and was able to installed both bearings with gloved fingers (had a hammer and socket at the ready, but no need).

Did not need to use Scotch Brite on the crank, surprisingly it cleaned up real nice with some WD-40 and a paper towel. Heated the center of the bearing on the clutch side and was able to hand push the crank in, but the next side needed a bit of tapping with a hammer, then a little bit of draw in with the case bolts.

No matter which side I do first, the case pins always seem to stop me from snugging up the second side.

You could spin the crank no problem w/o a flywheel, but I imitated something I saw TM do, tapped the crank back and forth a bit, and now it feels like I greased the bearings! Very smooth!

I put the D jug on with two bolts, and with an OEM piston the squish is .030. Wow, must have been close to .050 with a base gasket!

Anyone know if a Meteor Piston has a taller crown? Would like to get the squish down into the .020s. and I'm not going to belt sand the base!

Not sure on the meteor question Mikey. If you are POSITIVE the squish is 30, send it down and I’ll take 10 off the base for ya, with my belt sander.

RI Chevy · Jun 18, 2018

Is that a thin sharpie line or a thick used sharpie line?
Just rub the base on the asphalt a few times. Should do it, no?

Onan18 · Jun 18, 2018

RI Chevy said:
Is that a thin sharpie line or a thick used sharpie line?
Just rub the base on the asphalt a few times. Should do it, no?

Thin Sharpie.

RI Chevy · Jun 18, 2018

Oh..OK. Thin sharpie.
Should be good enough for who it's for. Dot dot dot

drf256 · Jun 18, 2018

RI Chevy said:
Is that a thin sharpie line or a thick used sharpie line?
Just rub the base on the asphalt a few times. Should do it, no?

"Thin sharpie is exactly 30 thou, it's amazing"

True quote...

RI Chevy · Jun 18, 2018

LMAO. WTF

stihl_head1982 · Jun 18, 2018

wow that escalated fast.

Stump Shot · Jun 18, 2018

MustangMike said:
First thing I did this morning was inventory my 046/460 parts and order most of what I need to complete a few saws. A few things I think I will have to get from the dealer (Air Filter Mount/Flange and Chain Brake linkage). Was ordering so much small stuff I had to call the Credit Card Co and tell them I had not been hacked!

Then I installed new bearings in a set of 046 case halves and temporarily put the 046 D jug on it. I first put the oil pump on the one half to act as a bearing stop, then used my HF heat gun to heat the bearing pockets and was able to installed both bearings with gloved fingers (had a hammer and socket at the ready, but no need).

Did not need to use Scotch Brite on the crank, surprisingly it cleaned up real nice with some WD-40 and a paper towel. Heated the center of the bearing on the clutch side and was able to hand push the crank in, but the next side needed a bit of tapping with a hammer, then a little bit of draw in with the case bolts.

No matter which side I do first, the case pins always seem to stop me from snugging up the second side.

You could spin the crank no problem w/o a flywheel, but I imitated something I saw TM do, tapped the crank back and forth a bit, and now it feels like I greased the bearings! Very smooth!

I put the D jug on with two bolts, and with an OEM piston the squish is .030. Wow, must have been close to .050 with a base gasket!

Anyone know if a Meteor Piston has a taller crown? Would like to get the squish down into the .020s. and I'm not going to belt sand the base!

Imitating what TM does is a smart move.
I would highly recommend taking squish measurement off of the exact piston being used. Even OEM can have variances.
I would also say to take up Doc's offer and let him "sand" it for you, so you can use a base gasket. Sometimes a little patience in time goes a long way in a build with rewards in the outcome.

Edit: Good luck with the build no matter how you go about it.

stihl_head1982 · Jun 18, 2018

Well wishes on this build (or builds) as it progresses. Excited about the prospective outcome.

MustangMike · Jun 18, 2018

I appreciate the Doc's offer, and maybe down the road I will take him up on that. However, my "self imposed" rules of my little game here was to see what the average guy could do with a Hemi Jug and a D jug, respectively, w/o any machining. In other words, just do at home stuff that most of us can do.

I was planning on using that OEM piston, and I still may, but I already have some Meteor's on order which should arrive long before the tank handles, so I will check squish with one of them.

I knew from measuring the jugs the squish band on each would be different. However, I used the Hemi jug with the tighter combustion chamber, so .018 may be a bit much. However, the exhaust ports are higher on the Hemi jugs, so that may balance things out. If the Hemi is tough to pull over, I will just add a thin base gasket.

Hey, if the D jugs ran great with a base gasket (and they did), it should be much better now! We will see.

Basically, I want to see what these things run like with a base gasket delete, timing advance, and muffler mods. That combo worked very well for both my 044 and my 440, so I want to replicate it with these two saws. Will see what happens.

RI Chevy · Jun 18, 2018

Cool Mike. All in the name of science. For the good of the order. [emoji106]

odin · Jun 18, 2018

MustangMike said:
I appreciate the Doc's offer, and maybe down the road I will take him up on that. However, my "self imposed" rules of my little game here was to see what the average guy could do with a Hemi Jug and a D jug, respectively, w/o any machining. In other words, just do at home stuff that most of us can do.

I was planning on using that OEM piston, and I still may, but I already have some Meteor's on order which should arrive long before the tank handles, so I will check squish with one of them.

I knew from measuring the jugs the squish band on each would be different. However, I used the Hemi jug with the tighter combustion chamber, so .018 may be a bit much. However, the exhaust ports are higher on the Hemi jugs, so that may balance things out. If the Hemi is tough to pull over, I will just add a thin base gasket.

Hey, if the D jugs ran great with a base gasket (and they did), it should be much better now! We will see.

Basically, I want to see what these things run like with a base gasket delete, timing advance, and muffler mods. That combo worked very well for both my 044 and my 440, so I want to replicate it with these two saws. Will see what happens.

@MustangMike I need to thank you for repeatedly spouting about the nice gains made on your 044 and 440 with the standard set of DIY mods. It's your insistence that a guy needs to try them that got me into wrenching on saws. I've got a MS440 with the HD filter, timing advance and opened muffler and it runs so much stronger I can't see why anyone wouldn't take the time to make the changes. Now y'all got me looking at slant-fin 044 cylinders on eBay (~$50) simply because it might be even funner to run (plus it's an excuse to to the gasket delete too).

Can't wait to see the results with these 046/460s.

huskyboy · Jun 18, 2018

I have a 2253 I tightened squish on/timing advance/muffler mod/mesh filter that I bet $ on is 3/4 of a full ported saw. Some saws don’t need much to really come alive.

MustangMike · Jun 18, 2018

Port Timing #s

I checked the port timing on the saws today and got the following:

D Jug: Squish .030 Ex 103, Tr 124, In 74.

Hemi Jug: Squish .018 Ex 105, Tr 127, In 75

I also received both my Meteor 460 pistons and the New West Big Bore pistons today, so here is a comparison:

All 3 pistons have the same height and crown height, but the Meteor has slightly wider skirts (side to side), especially on the Exhaust side.

The OEM piston is 2.8 oz, the other two are both 3.0 oz.

Total width of the New West at the bottom of the skirt is 1/100 wider than the other two, so no worry about a loose fit.

Both the OEM and Meteor pins were 0.4 oz, the New West pin was visibly fatter than the Meteor and was 0.6 oz.

Had to order some parts at the dealer today that I could not find on line. That darn Intake Flange is over $30!!!

huskihl · Jun 18, 2018

MustangMike said:
Port Timing #s

I checked the port timing on the saws today and got the following:

D Jug: Squish .030 Ex 103, Tr 124, In 74.

Hemi Jug: Squish .018 Ex 105, Tr 127, In 75

I also received both my Meteor 460 pistons and the New West Big Bore pistons today, so here is a comparison:

All 3 pistons have the same height and crown height, but the Meteor has slightly wider skirts (side to side), especially on the Exhaust side.

The OEM piston is 2.8 oz, the other two are both 3.0 oz.

Total width of the New West at the bottom of the skirt is 1/100 wider than the other two, so no worry about a loose fit.

Both the OEM and Meteor pins were 0.4 oz, the New West pin was visibly fatter than the Meteor and was 0.6 oz.

Had to order some parts at the dealer today that I could not find on line. That darn Intake Flange is over $30!!!

Velocity stack and black weenie on eBay for $20......

MustangMike · Jun 28, 2018

Got back to this project again today. Figured I better make some progress with it before I get involved in the next one that Dr Al is going to help me with (will be posting about that project soon … and you know when Dr Al is involved, it is never dull!!!).

So, I could not resist. Since I learned how to lower the intake ports working on the Asian 440 Big Bores, I just had to lower the intake on this one a bit. Just no use putting a saw together and not making run as well as you can. I also think I may have been rushing checking the port timing last time, the Ex and Tr #s I got this time are a bit different, and I did not change them.

My new #s, double checked, triple checked, etc.

Ex 104, Tr 122, Intake 77.5. My goal was to lower the intake 4 degrees (it was 74 last time). So, I raised the piston 4 degrees, approximated the distance, and lowered the intake by that amount. Considering I could not actually measure it, and I approximated the distance, I think it came our pretty close! Or as we used to say "good enough for government work" (I worked for NYS). The squish is .030, but with the small combustion chamber, and the 104 exhaust, I'm fine with that. I think this saw will be a good runner.

The biggest difference between this jug and the AM 440 Big Bores, which have combustion chambers that look remarkably similar to this, is the location of the Intake and the shape of the upper transfers. IMO, that is where the AM jugs really fall down.

I also keep learning things on these projects … Note to self … Do not flush the crank case before you install the seals!!! My first reaction was the gasket was leaking, and then I realized!

Today I installed the seals, piston, rings, and glued down the jug, so we are making progress. Most of the parts ordered have arrived, but not the tank handles, so until they come I can not finish.

Re Creating a Classic 046

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